Common situation, I hope not

[stevew]

Just been invited to carry out fire safety training in a 90 bed nursing home.
Currrent fire risk assessment jointly carried out by the Matron and a large so called risk management company.  
All service users require assistance in a fire emergency.  
The existing arrangements include:

1.  Building of 3 floors
2.  Compartments with up to 7 bedrooms some of which form a 15-18 metre dead end compartment.
3.  Clients of all shapes and sizes are bedridden, totally dependent on staff.
4.  Nothing provided to assist staff move clients
4.  Bedroom doors/corridors not wide enough to move clients on beds
5.  Thirty minute fire resisting standard throughout.
6.  Predominently foreign staff
7.  To date fire training carried out by the Matron.
7.  Current emergency procedure is to shut bedroom doors and wait for the fire service.  

A question for any serving fire safety inspectors.
Could this be happening in your fire authority 22 months into the FSO?
If not what is your authority doing to prevent it?
 
A question for all.
How do you convince the owners that to date they have wasted money and need to look at their fire safety arrangements urgently, without getting the FA involved?

[kurnal]

Just ask them a few pointed questions starting with what if? and How?  And show a few recent prosecution case histories like the Barnet case.

The penny will soon drop.

I was told by one of my care home clients that a very large first aid organisation that offers fire safety awareness courses is still telling clients that they dont need special equipment as its the fire service job to evacuate people. So my emergency plan I produced for them must be wrong.

[messy]

A question for any serving fire safety inspectors.
Could this be happening in your fire authority 22 months into the FSO?
If not what is your authority doing to prevent it?

Firstly Steve, yes, this is almost certainly happening across the UK including my Brigade's area (London).

Your quote of "22 months into the FSO" and "what is your authority doing to prevent it?" seem to imply that it is a fault of the fire service that some businessmen  apparently operate with scant regards for the legislation.

This is simply not the case. The responsibility of ensuring the FSO is complied with stops with the Resp Person. The Fire Service are responsible for enforcing the law.


I would ask you a question. What (now you suspect that this maybe an unsafe operation) are you going to do about it?

Incidentially, the Barnet case was a London Fire Brigade prosecution which led to a fine & costs of over £230,000, To be fair though, this prosecution outdates the change to the RR(FS)O 2005 and involved  contraventions of the Management of H&S regs. It may well have have been higher under the FSO!

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/detail.asp?id=844

[AnthonyB]

Oh dear - it wasn't by any chance the organisation beginning 'St' was it - their course is supposed to be IFE approved!

They use first aid trainers that have minimal extra training to run these courses.

I must see if I can get on one to see what they say (I'm the voluntary H&S/fire adviser for one of their counties)

[Username]

Stevew, the fact you have been invited in shows they must have some concerns.

I'd suggest you say to them that you'll only do the training if they revise their procedures etc etc.

[Steven N]

I'd suggest this is is still very common in lots of places, when we try to do something about it & I slightly paraphrase here we then get accused of being jack booted inspectors.

[stevew]

Thanks for the comments.

Kurnel
All brought up in the meeting which I must say was taken on board by the Matron.  (See below)

Messy
With regard to your comment I am not placing blame at the door of the FA's.  However what I am suggesting is that if a FA operates an inspection programme based upon risk I would have thought that all such premises would have been audited within the first two years.
I had decided to write to the Matron who in my opinion was concerned and responsive to my comments.  My letter would have included the following points:
a.  the existing FRA does not satisfy the requirements of  the RRO
b.  as our training would conflict with their current arrangements we would not be prepared to provide the service
c.  she should contact the FA for general advice on the areas raised in our conversation.
d.  she should report our meeting to the RP.

Did not have to send the letter.  Matron rang me yesterday and made her own decision by booking a FRA with us prior to out first training session.

Username
The reason I was invited in was that I already carry out training at another care premises within the group.

Stevo
I'm certain that you do not operate in such a way.  However jack boots or not surely staff, service users and their relatives would expect a pro-active approach by a FA.  My previous employers considered the risk to be sufficient to inspect all care premises on behalf of the registration authority annually.  Risk has'nt changed.  
 
PS  If I had lost the client I would have raised the matter with the FA.