Loft conversion- open plan staircase

[ian gough]

Retty: Once again, I would suggest that your views are not in accordance with your fire authority's. Indeed, I don't know of any fire authority that would suggest a BS 9251 sprinkler system is a "super dooper protective measure" or, as someoene else has stated, "an engineered solution iffy at best." Ask your Chief if you doubt me here.

Quite frankly I don't think you know enough about domestic sprinklers and the engineering involved - which is quite simple with little to go wrong (unlike a fire door). Of course there is a cost but that is down to the client and their contractor. I deal with many calls for help where owners want to install sprinklers rather than passive protection because 'open-plan living' is how people want their homes designed. I firmly believe sprinklers are an option and people should have the choice.

Frustratingly, so many 'fire experts' keep insisting: on the one hand (domestic - where the deaths are) on doors of dubious standards and quality, they know will likely not be shut; but then on the other, harass the life out of commercial owners/occupiers etc (where deaths are very few) to fix smoke seals and intumscent strips to every door possible - in addition to self-closers etc etc. All upon threat of prosecution if they do not!  

Also, let me deal with the incipient stages and smoke spread. What is the problem with this - provided smoke detection is present? If the fire is slow growing and the person awake why can't they put the fire out? How many deaths have you investigated where the fire was slow growing and smouldered, producing cool smoke and the person aware of the fire? Conversley, consider those where there was a rapid fire growth. Only sprinklers can stop the flashover which is why many countries now insist on this approach.  

Finally: I'm amazed that some fire officers are so keen on water mist for such risks - despite the weight of testing evidence available for BS 9251 systems, compared to next to none for water mist!

[wee brian]

If we need the advice of chief officers - we are all doomed

[ian gough]

Much the same as Ministers!

[Midland Retty]

Ian

You have misunderstood my comments and I resent your patronising reply. By all means debate your point, but please don't judge people, or their levels of competence.

Firstly would you like to tell me which authority I work for seeing as you seem to know so much about me?

To my knowledge no fire authority discourages the installation of sprinkler systems in new builds, also they try to push for sprinklers in existing buildings wherever possible too, sometimes they are unable to enforce it however.

Secondly yes I do know about sprinklers thank you, Im not sure why you feel I don't - strangely you actually confirm what I said originally about perceptions of cost that the layperson has about sprinkler systems - so not sure what you were trying to prove there.

I agree with you about people having choice of open plan living. Great!.

But alas you miss the point we are making relating to the real world where human behaviour issues mean that the sprinkler system won't be maintained properly by the residents for the reasons I and other people on this forum have eluded to.

Such precautions should be maintained. Fire alarms should be maintained, emergency lighting systems have to be maintained, my car's brakes have to be maintained... why? not simply because the law says so , but because regular maintenance ensure the device concerned will work when required. Unless you are suggesting we don't need to maintain sprinklers?

So some people remove doors? or dont reapir them as you mention. Yes correct. Some do, others dont  - most people however do repair damaged doors for privacy or security reasons as I said. Doors are more obvious than the components of a sprinkler system, so when something is wrong with the door they are more likely to notice it.

The point I make is that without doors smoke would be allowed to perculate throughout the building in the event of fire

I think I''ll deal with the issue of smoke spread in the incipient stages of fire thank you Ian:-

If (to quote your scenario) we have smoke detection, and as you said the resident is awake why cant they put the fire out? Well there is no reason why they can't put the fire out. But they could do that regardless of whether sprinklers are fitted or not, so again not sure of your argument there.

But what about if those persons were asleep?

Furthermore not sure where you are coming from asking about "how many deaths I have investigated where the fire was slow growing and smouldered, producing cool smoke and the person aware of the fire"

The answer is none for obvious reasons. I have witnessed slow growing smouldering fires however where alot of smoke was generated in a short space of time and been able to permiate through the rest of the property.

Sprinklers do not initially stop smoke and thats exactly why I bring up this point.

Smoke is the killer not flame. You still need doors along with sprinkler systems (note i DID NOT say fire doors) Sprinklers do not negate the need for doors Ian.

YOu are quite right that people do prop open doors and that aids smoke travel, but I ask you again you try saying to a landlord  of a HMO "fit a sprinkler system" and see what reply you get. Also tell me how sprinklers stop propped door situations!.

[ian gough]

'Assume Nothing, Question Everything, and be paranoid like me' your words not mine. And you said you did inspections in the West Midlands.

[Midland Retty]

Not sure I follow Ian...perhaps Im missing something...would welcome your answer / comment to my last post above.

I have done inspections in the West Midlands region, however the area is covered by several fire and rescue services, and furthermore I serve with two brigades.

[ian gough]

So many targets - so little time; however:

1) We are talking about loft conversions and 3 storey domestic properties - a subject few fire & rescue service officers know much about because they get little or no training in these matters.

2) Your knowledge of domestic sprinkler maintenance appears, at best, limited.

3) Your knowledge of water mist in domestic situations - as above.

4) Your experience of fatal fire investigation - similar.

Finally, as you and others on this site clearly let all and sundry know that you are serving fire officers, I feel (despite Wee B's protests), that you appreciate that your views are purely personal and not that of the fire service in general - or your particular authority (especially: London, West Mids and Staffs!). Furthermore, other non-fire service readers should note that fact and maybe make their decisions accordingly.

[nearlythere]

So many targets - so little time; however:

1) We are talking about loft conversions and 3 storey domestic properties - a subject few fire & rescue service officers know much about because they get little or no training in these matters.

2) Your knowledge of domestic sprinkler maintenance appears, at best, limited.

3) Your knowledge of water mist in domestic situations - as above.

4) Your experience of fatal fire investigation - similar.

Finally, as you and others on this site clearly let all and sundry know that you are serving fire officers, I feel (despite Wee B's protests), that you appreciate that your views are purely personal and not that of the fire service in general - or your particular authority (especially: London, West Mids and Staffs!). Furthermore, other non-fire service readers should note that fact and maybe make their decisions accordingly.

Flippin heck. What's got into him?

[kurnal]

Ian I would be interested in your views in respect of one possible use of domestic sprinklers. The recent determination by the sec of state leads me to conclude that a strategy involving the provision of sprinklers in an access room, being the only possible exit route from an inner room,is not acceptable.
Such a strategy would rely on the sprinklers suppressing a fire sufficiently to render the route passable (even if not immediately) or buy time for a rescue by others and would usually be in conjunction with full detection throughout.
Similarly the use of sprinklers in any part of an exit route to control fire and render the route tenable for escape, such as open plan situations is also not an option.

Do you have a view on this?

[Midland Retty]

So many targets - so little time; however:

1) We are talking about loft conversions and 3 storey domestic properties - a subject few fire & rescue service officers know much about because they get little or no training in these matters.

2) Your knowledge of domestic sprinkler maintenance appears, at best, limited.

3) Your knowledge of water mist in domestic situations - as above.

4) Your experience of fatal fire investigation - similar.

Finally, as you and others on this site clearly let all and sundry know that you are serving fire officers, I feel (despite Wee B's protests), that you appreciate that your views are purely personal and not that of the fire service in general - or your particular authority (especially: London, West Mids and Staffs!). Furthermore, other non-fire service readers should note that fact and maybe make their decisions accordingly.

Ian I'm going to make a few assumptions now. If you are the Ian Gough I think you are then I have attended seminars and lectures where you were guest speaker and found you to be both entertaining, knowledgeable and approachable on matters regarding fire safety.
 
When you fielded questions after your presentation (even if some did seem a little silly) you never responded in the tone you have to my thread. I find it a shame therefore that you replied to me in the way you did.

You still make assumptions about who I am, where I work (West Mids Staffs?) my level of competency and criticise me and others about constantly hammering the point that we are Inspecting officers which is completely un true - I will perhaps private message you and put you right on those issues rather than rabbit on here.

Back to thread, Ian please could you answer the replies Kurnal and I posted above,

If either myself or others are wrong in what we are saying then a few kind pointers in the right direction will surely help to educate us and improve our knowledge in specific areas.

I just tend to switch off from people who metorphorically sigh, tut, roll their eyes or make assumptions about people without knowing the facts or because they perceive the person making the argument is talking absolute tosh.

Would be nice to keep things light hearted and proffesional.

[jayjay]

Re this debate on sprinklers fire warning and means of escapein flats.

I have a PDF copy (9pages) of the recent determination if any one wants a copy email me..

The Determination is in regard to
"The question arising in this case relates to the internal layout of a number of one and two bedroom flats which occur on Levels 3, 4 and 5. These flats are so arranged that one or more of the bedrooms are inner rooms, where the escape route passes through a combined living/dining kitchen room".

The Determination gives an interesting review on the factors considered and why the package of proposals (including sprinklers) was considerd not to comply with B1.

[kurnal]

Re this debate on sprinklers fire warning and means of escapein flats.

I have a PDF copy (9pages) of the recent determination if any one wants a copy email me..

The Determination is in regard to
"The question arising in this case relates to the internal layout of a number of one and two bedroom flats which occur on Levels 3, 4 and 5. These flats are so arranged that one or more of the bedrooms are inner rooms, where the escape route passes through a combined living/dining kitchen room".

The Determination gives an interesting review on the factors considered and why the package of proposals (including sprinklers) was considerd not to comply with B1.

Heres the link to the determination originally posted by WeeBrian in another thread
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/determination451233

There is an interesting article on this very topic in this months IFE magazine ( Fire Risk Management) that appears to provide some of the solutions to the problems caused by this recent determination

[Midland Retty]

Any further comment Ian based on the above posts?