Rp

[Davidrh]

Can someone tell me exactly and in the current UK law what RIGHTS (ie not responsibilties) the RP has.
...If any
I ask this because I am totally convinced that smoke shields should not be put on hotel bedroom doors where HD's are fitted.
My brigade are telling me to fit them.
This is not a finance issue. ..and I will fit them
But as RP I feel I should put a notice in each and every hotel bedroom on the lines that
Dear Guest.
The local fire brigage have required me to fit smoke seals to your bedroom door.
This  effectively seals your bedroom and because we (legally) have heat detectors in our bedrooms it is possible that you will die of smoke inhalation before the alarm sounds if a fire starts in your room.
You might want to contact the xxxxx FB  (Including name/s of fire officer) to find out why you, as an individual, are of so little consequence.
Copy to Local Fire brigade

Now I am not going to put out above notice in room NOT because I don't believe what I have written simply that I know the FB will make my life very very uncomfortable if I do

I'm just the little fish

Even So, going back to the beginning< I am the responsible person, but I appear to have no say over this issue

What do you good folk think

[kurnal]

Hiya once again little fish.

Why not stick a standalone smoke alarm in eachroom then your guests will probably be alerted  to a fire in their room in under a minute after ignition.

Otherwise if they are relying on the smoke detectors in the corridor you are probably going to have to wait about 4-6 minutes till either the heat detector in the room or the smoke detector in the corridor operates. Why not give them the benefit of early detection?

[nearlythere]

Can someone tell me exactly and in the current UK law what RIGHTS (ie not responsibilties) the RP has.
...If any
I ask this because I am totally convinced that smoke shields should not be put on hotel bedroom doors where HD's are fitted.
My brigade are telling me to fit them.
This is not a finance issue. ..and I will fit them
But as RP I feel I should put a notice in each and every hotel bedroom on the lines that
Dear Guest.
The local fire brigage have required me to fit smoke seals to your bedroom door.
This  effectively seals your bedroom and because we (legally) have heat detectors in our bedrooms it is possible that you will die of smoke inhalation before the alarm sounds if a fire starts in your room.
You might want to contact the xxxxx FB  (Including name/s of fire officer) to find out why you, as an individual, are of so little consequence.
Copy to Local Fire brigade

Now I am not going to put out above notice in room NOT because I don't believe what I have written simply that I know the FB will make my life very very uncomfortable if I do

I'm just the little fish

Even So, going back to the beginning< I am the responsible person, but I appear to have no say over this issue

What do you good folk think

You have to ask and you have a right to know why exactly you are required to install smoke seals and what contribution they will make in reducing any risk from fire to a tolerable level for all relevant persons in the premises?

[Thomas Brookes]

Whats the reason for having heat detectors in all the bedrooms?

[Galeon]

Whats the reason for having heat detectors in all the bedrooms?

The good old false alarm syndrome ?

[kurnal]

The history and development of the BS5839 is behind it. Theres a full account of it on this forum by Colin Todd. No doubt if our friend TWSutton logs in he will point us towards it. If not I will dig through and provide a link  later tonight.

[kurnal]

Heres the link to Colins explanation. see post 4 in this thread.

http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=786

Hope this helps. Please read it carefully. Dr Wiz may ask questions later.

Personally I differ a little from Colins view- but he posted this 3 years ago. It appears to me perfectly reasonable to put something in place that will give someone the best chance of survival in the unlikely event of a fire in their room. I think its a matter of adapting to technical progress, to reduce the risk as low as is reasonably practicaable. In a new build its easy to put in a multi sensor head or a smoke detector with a staff alert and a double knock system. In an old hotel with heat detectors in rooms a self contained smoke alarm in each room. Why not?

[Midland Retty]

Hi David

In the event of fire the first thing we want to do is alert people to the fact that a fire has started so that they can make their escape unharmed.

The second thing we want to do in a fire is ensure that neither smoke or flame can spread onto the escape routes that people will be using to evacuate.

The fire officer you have been dealing with I suspect wants to ensure that the escape routes don't get smoke logged before the heat detection has had chance to activate which may take several minutes.

There is a theory that if you leave smoke seals off say a bedroom door smoke would get throught the gaps in the door and hit a smoke detector in the corridor. Unfortunately I dont like this theory whatsoever - it is to arbitary.

I'm not a huge fan of HD in bedrooms either for exactly the same reasons Kurnal has eluded to before - would much prefer smoke detection.

But smoke seals are definately required to keep the fire contained, and the escape routes tennable, because it may be a good few minutes before the heat detection activates.

Why do you feel seals arent required David if you don't mind me asking?

To get back to your original question you do have rights an RP. If you feel that any requirement imposed on you by an inspecting officer is unfair or unbalanced there is a procedure whereby you can appeal at a brigade level and if necessary and all else fails seek a determination by the secretary of state. Your local brigade will advise you of their appeals / complaints procedure.

Dont stick comments about jack booted fire officers on the back of your bedroom doors though please David - you will scare your guests! :-)

[Rex]

David rh
Look on the Local Government & Communities web site, Regulatory Reform[Fire Safety] Order 2005 Guidance Note.2 Determination of Disputes by the Secretary of State, but try to sort it out with your inspecting officer first, you need a good case to win an appeal, and the inspecting officer would probably use the Sleeping Accomodation guide in defence againest you, so have a look at that as well. You have a right to appeal on a technical disagreement, the Secretary Of State cannot determine the law itself.

[Tom Sutton]

The history and development of the BS5839 is behind it. Theres a full account of it on this forum by Colin Todd. No doubt if our friend TWSutton logs in he will point us towards it. If not I will dig through and provide a link later tonight.

I agree Kurnal it is worth a read but it must be read with caution as you know it was referring to the time when the FPA was the current legislation. At that time it was accepted that the people in the room of origin could perish providing every other person was safely evacuated (in practice this rarely happened).

Now under the RR(FS)O all persons in the premises are relevant persons and should be considered which include the people in the room of origin. Providing only heat detection will not give them the best chance and your suggestion of the stand alone smoke supplementing the heat I would consider acceptable or any of the other solutions put forward on this forum.

Those working on the assumption that smoke will percolate into the escape route and activate the nearest smoke detector may if the detector is near enough (1.5M) but in many situations, all it will do is fill the escape route with smoke and create a serious situation. Therefore I would suggest the doors should have smoke seals with means to give early detection in the rooms.

[wtfdik]

Apart from suicide or comotose by drink/drugs can someone supply me with the huge numbers of people who have died in Hotel Bedrooms that had HD or SD. Thev funeral directors and A&E wards cant wait fo HD to be replaced with SD they will have so much free time.

[Chris Houston]

It's probably less than the number of people who are bombed on planes.  Should we stop the airport security?  

Very few people have died as a result of nuclear power plant explosions in the UK recently, should we deregulate the industry?

The thing is, we don't wait for deaths or legislate based on death statistics.

That said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/6961047.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560632/Cornwall-hotel-fire-death-toll-to-rise.html
http://www.blackpoolcitizen.co.uk/news/3597641.Hotel_couple_charged_after_Blackpool_fire_death/

Official line:

Deaths from fires
1.11 In 2004, there were 508 fire-related deaths in the UK, a decrease of 14% from the 2003 figure
of 593. This included 3 firefighter fatalities in 2004 and 1 in 2003. The total number of deaths
in the UK in 2004 is also considerably lower than the figures recorded prior to 2003 (562 in
2002, 606 in 2001, 613 in 2000 and 623 in 1999) and represents the lowest number of fatalities
in the UK for 45 years. For further information on previous years see the special feature on
long time series data and tables 26 and 28.
Location (Tables 6 and 26, Figure 1.4)
1.12 The majority of fire-related deaths (around three-quarters) occur in dwelling fires. In 2004, 375
deaths were recorded in dwellings, a reduction of 16% on the previous year. This compares
with 447 deaths in 2003, 430 in 2002, 483 in 2001, 455 in 2000 and 463 in 1999. As in
previous years, dwellings also had more fire related deaths per 1,000 fires than any other
location. In 2004, there were 6 deaths per 1,000 dwelling fires, compared with 1.5 deaths per
1,000 for other buildings and 0.7 deaths per 1,000 for road vehicles.

from

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/144260.pdf

[Tom Sutton]

Apart from suicide or comotose by drink/drugs can someone supply me with the huge numbers of people who have died in Hotel Bedrooms that had HD or SD. Thev funeral directors and A&E wards cant wait fo HD to be replaced with SD they will have so much free time.

From CT posting, an alternative view to my above suggestion.

"Some accept heat without question. Some accept heat and recommend smoke. Some demand smoke because they dont understand the background.
What about the poor guy in the room of origin? The record shows he doesnt die anyway. In a study carried out in fires over a 5 year period prior to introducing detectors in bedrooms, not a single sould died from fire in any star rated hotel in the UK. Thos who died in non-star rated accommodation were mostly in hostel-like properties, and those who died in the room of origin were committing suicide or were out of it on drugs or alcohol in the main.
So those who do require s/d in bedrooms are trying to save the lives of those who never die anyway---to the detriment of the safety of others, which is compromised by the tendency to ignore alarms because of the rate of false alarms, to introduce staff alarms to delay signals from s/d (so might as well have hd) etc etc.
Ignore hype from people about sophisticated systems ignoring phenomena that cause false alarms, as, in the case of the average system, it is bunkum. In a recently opened hotel, there were 50 false alarms in the first week as a result of steam from en suite showers and kettles."

[wtfdik]

Thanks TW but according to some people because there is a risk at some time someone might die than put in smoke why not sprinklers why not issue them with parachutes. Sorry for my sarcasm but there has to be a riak cost benefit exercise. In some hotels SD maybe needed but in some HD may be reasonable and acceptable.

[Tom Sutton]

How would you conduct this risk cost benefit exercise?