Author Topic: Fires in B&Bs  (Read 16410 times)

Offline Alan Keith

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Fires in B&Bs
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2008, 09:48:21 AM »
Izan, You had me confused for a while.   I'm afraid you are referring to the wrong legislation.  The RRO affects England, whereas Scotland is subject to the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005.   Our government felt it was appropriate to to the whole job its own way at the cost of Scottish taxpayers rather than pool resources with England.   The Act is worded quite differently, although strangely the resultant problems seems to mirror those down south.

Offline Alan Keith

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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2008, 09:56:00 AM »
Quote from: Ricardo
In circumstances such as these I wouldnt class spending "some" cash on repairing/ replacing some past their best fire doors or even some adequate fire detection ( if necessary) as being disproportionate when conducting the risk cost/benefit analysis you mention.
Ricardo, For the record, I don't really have much of a problem about any accommodation provider of a size greater than 6 bedspaces having to have fire doors, alarms etc.   These businesses are of such a size that their premises generally are capable of division into 2 sections, commercial & residential.  My own place is in that category.  I'm concerned only with the smaller premises that have the form of a normal domestic residence but simply use 2 or 3 rooms to accommodate paying guests, using all of the facilities for their own use domestically at times.  These are the ones that will choose to close if required to alter their homes at disproportionate cost.

Offline Ricardo

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 02:57:18 PM »
Hi airds
I see what you are saying, and agree with your final sentence.lets hope that common sense can prevail on all sides, and the "smaller B & B you refer to is able to continue providing their service without too much of a financial burden that could see them collapse, I'm sure none of us want to see that happen. Working together to achieve risk proportionate results is what we all want.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2008, 12:40:26 PM »
Quite agree Ricardo

Airds I totally accept what you said about enforcement / requirements being proportional to the risk.

As others have mentioned here many landlords wonder why they have to provide certain precautions, particularly when they only let a couple of rooms out to guests in their own home .

In our own homes we generally have total control of what goes on in there, add to the mix guests or "strangers" as I like to call them that element of control diminishes.

Can anyone landlords throw some light on the sort of costs involved in upgrading a small B&B with the required fire precautions? It may help us to appreciate your position further.

Offline Alan Keith

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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2008, 09:31:00 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Quite agree Ricardo

Airds I totally accept what you said about enforcement / requirements being proportional to the risk.

As others have mentioned here many landlords wonder why they have to provide certain precautions, particularly when they only let a couple of rooms out to guests in their own home .

In our own homes we generally have total control of what goes on in there, add to the mix guests or "strangers" as I like to call them that element of control diminishes.

Can anyone landlords throw some light on the sort of costs involved in upgrading a small B&B with the required fire precautions? It may help us to appreciate your position further.
I can provide some information here.   Firs of all the fact that "strangers" are taken in does not really reduce the element of control that much. In fact I would suggest there are many who have less control over their own family members than those who operate B&Bs have over their guests.   In a B&B, because of the intimacy of the accommodation, guests almost invariably behave with courtesy and consideration.  If they don't you are quickly aware of the fact and will take extra care, just as anyone would do when they feel their own property is in any way at risk.   People can and will be asked to leave if their behaviour is less than reasonable.   In practice, most guests are very responsible people and problems rarely happen.  The situation is quite different to a larger concern such as a hotel, where there is usually little direct contact between guests and the owner.  

Regarding costs of work this will vary widely, but typically the work might cost from £1000 to £3000.  But it's not just the cost.  It's the fact that the quality of your house may be devalued because of the removal of character doors and damage to floors and surfaces to install wiring.   Many B&Bs are not run principally for commercial reasons, but as a form of supplementary income for something you enjoy doing.   Financially it is often only marginally viable.   This is why so many B&Bs are likely to close rather than spend significant sums of money, that they are unlikely to recover, on alterations.

I think if a B&B owner has a strong policy about smoking and avoids all the usual sources of ignition such as candles, open fires etc. the risk of fire should be extremely small.   With good housekeeping and reduction of potential fire loads by minimising furniture fabrics etc.  risk of a fire developing undetected is also low in these circumstances.   I'm all for advising owners about all the practical means to reduce risk that don't involve damaging their homes and pockets.

I'm pleased to see this discussion unfold sensibly and thank all contributors again.   This is the best way to achieve understanding.   I am in contact with people across Scotland and can attest to the fact that a number of B&Bs are already seriously considering closing down because of the local Fire Service's demands  of them.   This is a major problem for the tourism industry and local economies.  I also know that similar problems are unfolding in England although the law is different there.

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2008, 10:56:51 PM »
I have worked for several who have chosen to close rather than make the necessary investment to bring their places up to my opinion of what is required.

One job on the go at the moment is an old historic  character farmhouse, 3 double rooms two storey with cellar, one room ensuite other two share bathroom. Building is 250 years old, staircase rises from entrance hall, pine doors - original- line staircase.
Owner reluctant to disturb old ornate ceilings for wired alarm, so is budgeting for part 1 radio linked system L2 at about £4K and plans to replace the three most dodgy doors with similar doors- about £250 each. If when fire service visit him in the future they reject my risk assessment and ask for all doors to be upgraded this will be further 7 doors at about £200,  plus electrical testing at £350 Pat testing at £200 total budget cost between £5300 and £6800. Plus my extortionate fee of course.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 01:04:26 PM »
It's intresting to get an appreciation of the costs involved

Airds thank you for your post, it was enlightening.

Out of interest has anyone investigated potential reductions in insurance premiums as a result of additional fire precautions being implemnted within B&Bs specifically - are there for example any significant savings to be had?

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2008, 04:14:13 PM »
somewhere between none and not much.  Fire risk is small compared to all the other risks insured.

Its only really big buildings where stuff like sprinklers start to pay for themselves.

Offline Alan Keith

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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2008, 09:26:55 PM »
Quote from: wee brian
somewhere between none and not much.  Fire risk is small compared to all the other risks insured.
Wee Brian makes a good point.  Insurance for B&Bs is quite inexpensive, reflecting the fact that despite third party liabilities, the "compensation culture" and other factors, the level of claims associated with B&Bs is extremely low.  Insurers will not reduce premiums for alterations that produce little or no reduction in the level and incidence of claims.

Offline Mike Buckley

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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2008, 12:54:19 PM »
Going back to airds original point. The statistics collected from the FDR1 and published by the government are a very broad brush and it is wrong to expect too much detail from them. Exactly where a B&B would be reported very much depends on the person filling in the form. Two people recording the same fire could very well put the premises under different catagories. In the overall view all tends to be ironed out but as soon as you start trying to get detail out of the figures you are likely to run into trouble.

There are always going to be difficulties for example how exactly do you record a brothel?

It used to be that if there was an type of building or fire which was being officially researched then there would be an additional form to complete. So unless there has been a project specifically on fires in B&Bs the figures are not going to be available from then official stats.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.