Guest house

[jokar]

Mushy, look at it this way.  A shaft running through the building from top to bottom and the openings in it are doors that lead from the accommodation to the stairs.  In a commercial office type building with 1 staircase the accommodation can not deliver straight to the stairs apart from the uppermost floor, it will need 2 door protection which in most cases will be a lobby.  In sleeping accommodatio, hotels/hostels etc this is still the case although the room doors should be fire doors entering a protected area which could be a protected corridor and then only one door to the staircase will be required. ( the door to the bedroom providing the 2nd door protection)

In your domestic property most people would accept that the  room doors leading on to the stairs would need no added protection at the uppermost level and probably not at the lower level either as space is normally at a premium.  ( I have no idea of the size of this property).  In addition at ground level you may have additional methods of escape to a garden area which hopefully goes to a place of safety through patio doors and kitchen doors.

[Mushy]

Thanks jokar...which means then in this 4 bed 2 storey guest house you are not allowed to come out of your room and into a corridor that leads direct to a staircase unless that staircase has a Fr door at the head...thereby being two door protected

Also looking at BR guidance...a commercial office type situation can have a single stair of two floors without two door protection...but that digresses...thanks again

[jokar]

No, the upper floors do not have to have 2 door protection and it would be most unusual to find 2 door protection in a 2 storey building.

[Mushy]

sorry mate I thought you meant what you said below was for this guest house...ie 2 door protection..one from bedroom and the other to the staircas

"In sleeping accommodatio, hotels/hostels etc this is still the case although the room doors should be fire doors entering a protected area which could be a protected corridor and then only one door to the staircase will be required. ( the door to the bedroom providing the 2nd door protection)"

so they can come out of their bedroom that has a fire door and walk to the staircase that is open to the corridor....and walk down the stairs and out of the exit...as long as all the rooms leading to the staircase at ground floor are fire doors

I'll go and lie down

[CivvyFSO]

Civvy, please do not think I am attacking you on a personal basis. You are the brave one from a FRS that puts his head above the water and staes what is going on.  However, I reserve the right to disagree with some of the statements that you make as you do with me.

I never took it as a personal attack Jokar. If there was a tone to my post that suggested I was on the defensive then I apologise. I don't actually agree with half of what I actually put (re: Why should we vary by even 1m etc) I was just making a point. I am all for solutions on a risk assessed basis. If something is not needed to keep people safe then it is simply not needed.

Hey what are the fire service giving? Its not their place to "give" anything.

As an RP its MY job to manage the risk and MY job to decide what is reasonable. Its the fire services job to police this and stop me from doing anything silly and bring me to book if I digress.

Indeed Kurnal. The type of RP/premises I talk about in these instances are the type where you as an RP had done little or nothing, the premises is rather dangerous, and it needs bringing up to a standard. The first thing I should be doing as an enforcer is seeing what guidance issued by the secretary of state says. and possibly suggesting that to the RP via advice accompanying the enforcement notice.

In this instance, why should I put my neck on the line by lowering standards when it is not my responsiblity? I am going to leave the bare minimum to 'good management and housekeeping etc' as the RP has already proved to me that they are possibly not capable of managing a premises safely.

As soon as we are looking at enforcement our advice given puts us in a position similar to a consultant. If there was a problem and we got it wrong the RP's defence would be "This is what the fire service told me to do". My only reasonable defense there is "This is what the guidance suggests". It takes a fair amount of experience and competence to veer from the guidance, some people are not confident enough to do it, some are possibly not competent enough.

I think where we often get off on a wrong foot here is that when we (The FRS) talk about enforcing standards other people imagine us coming into THEIR premises or somewhere they have already assessed and making them alter the standards to suit the guidance. This would not be the case unless it was truly warranted due to some error.

I might have said this before. but ideally what we should do is simply enforce the risk assessment. Give 1 month for completion and then (providing it is suitable and sufficient) enforce what the risk assessment says is necessary.

[kurnal]

Indeed Kurnal. The type of RP/premises I talk about in these instances are the type where you as an RP had done little or nothing, the premises is rather dangerous, and it needs bringing up to a standard. The first thing I should be doing as an enforcer is seeing what guidance issued by the secretary of state says. and possibly suggesting that to the RP via advice accompanying the enforcement notice.

In this instance, why should I put my neck on the line by lowering standards when it is not my responsiblity? I am going to leave the bare minimum to 'good management and housekeeping etc' as the RP has already proved to me that they are possibly not capable of managing a premises safely.

I might have said this before. but ideally what we should do is simply enforce the risk assessment. Give 1 .

As usual Civvy we huff and puff and end up agreeing with each other.

[Ricardo]

[It is worthy of note that there is an anomoly between the coverage of an LD2 system described in BS5839 pt6 and the coverage noted in the CLG guide. LD2 in 5839 says detection in escape routes ONLY (so none in rooms off)

Not quite, In BS 5839-6 Clause 8 "Categories of System" LD2 is described thus:-
a system incorporating detectors in ALL circulation spaces that form part of the escape routes from the dwelling, AND in all rooms or areas that present a high fire risk to occupants.( then refering you to Clause 4 on fire risk assessments) For example Clause 8.1.2, an LD2 might have detectors only in the circulation areas of the dwelling,the living room, and the kitchen, other areas might be left without detecor coverage.

[Ricardo]

If I can show that for my premises and activities that everyone can get out safely without being exposed to risk of injury - the time available for safe evacuation exceeds the time it will take for the tenability limits to be reached then as far as I am concerned the guides and travel distances can go in the bin.

Hi Prof Kurnal, am I reading this bit rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that its back to front the bit about
"the time available for safe evacuation exceeds the time it will take for the tenability limits to be reached" do you not mean "the time taken for tenability to be reached must exceed the time taken for safe evacuation???, or is that what you are actually saying, (and I've got it all wrong)

[kurnal]

No right you surely are. To Yoda my sentence sense would make but every one else surely will be mystified.

[Mushy]

With a LD2 grade D is there a need for call points?

[CivvyFSO]

According to the BS:

Generally, the incorporation of manual call points in the fire detection and fire alarm system will only be
necessary in certain dwellings that warrant the provision of a Grade A or Grade B system. Manual call
points can, however, readily be incorporated within a Grade C system. Grades D, E and F systems normally
have no facility for incorporation of manual call points, nor are manual call points necessary in the types of
dwelling for which these Grades of system are suitable.

Basically no, not on a grade D, although I have seen them on grade D systems.

[Mushy]

Thanks CivvyFSO.....it's appreciated

[Davo]

Has anybody got a copy yet of the new FPA guide to Fire Risk Management in Hotels and Guesthouses, and does it offer sensible solutions, ie could we recommend it to our friends in the trade?

Its only 15 quid

davo

[kurnal]

Has anybody got a copy yet of the new FPA guide to Fire Risk Management in Hotels and Guesthouses, and does it offer sensible solutions, ie could we recommend it to our friends in the trade?

Its only 15 quid

davo

Davo

If you lend me the 15 quid I will buy it and tell you.

The fire safety order guidance is comprehensive and at 147 pages approx is a step too far for most hoteliers.Add to this the guidance on persons with special needs.  The RRO guidance document also still refers to the old HO FP Act guide to management as a useful document.

IMO theres probably not much new info that could be put in but the older guidance may be hard to get hold of.

[Mushy]

Can anyone please tell me why a linen cupboard has to be half hour fire resistant and kept locked shut?

This particular one is apparently in this guest house on the stair landing

If there is nothing in there but linen on shelves...is it going to spontaneously combust?