Guest house

[Midland Retty]

Contact essex fire and rescue service and ask them about the circumstances of the case im sure you will find that there is more to it than what you have said

What you hinting at Izan?

I'm hinting that each case is different there may very well be a situation that has arisen where there could be a solution to why there are "no fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only" and these GFP have been applied to this premises based on the findings of the FRA. But unfortunately Davidhr thinks that if one can do it so can everyone but the GFP needed for each premises may be different. SO ask Essex FRS and ask what is so differnet about this premises.

Absoultely correct Izan

DavidHr to put it in context - it's rather like me walking into your guest House and asking " Why are you charging £30 per night when the Guest House down the road is only charging £25?" Well there are probably several valid reasons why.

Likewise you will find that there will be several valid reasons why different fire precautions have been accepted at the other guest house you refer to.

It does not infer or imply however that those precautions are acceptable across the board. Furthermore in the example you mention there may be additional factors that were required as compensatory features.

Its very difficult for us on the forum to summise why that particular hotel in Essex has been accepted with theprecautions you describe. Without knowing the full facts or seeing the premises we would simply be guessing. I appreciate David you are only asking legitimate questions, want a level playing field and are trying to understand fire safety a bit more.

The best thing to do would be to contact Essex Fire and Rescue Service and see if they will give you any information.

Risk assessment means that there will never be total consistency. The business sector did not want prescription and must accept therefore that each building will be assessed individually and will require individual solutions .

[jokar]

Of course it mat be that the FRA was told by the trading arm of Essex FRS and therefore the IO did not want to challenge it.

[Midland Retty]

It may or it may not...

But we don't know the findings of the FRA, Jokar... how do we know they aren't acceptable?

I'm not by the way advocating or defending brigades who set up a trading arm selling fire risk assessments. Personally I don't think that is right.

But even still, we don't know the full facts about that individual case and as "IzanFSO" points out just because certain GFPs have been accepted in one individual building doesn't mean to say they will be acceptable elsewhere.

[jokar]

I quite agree, ther are many engineered solution premises out there that do not meet the norm of fire safety.  However, you have a business person who can not understand why apples and pears are different when an FRS are telling him that they are.  All relies on a good FRA but even when RP's have one some FRS staff say "who cares" you will do what I want.  Obviously not in the case of Essex who have taken a different line, whatever this premises are.

[Mushy]

I suppose my last two questions were two too much

cheers anyhow your help has been appreciated.... so no more questions on this soddin guest house


oh apart from what's the procedure and timescale for testing a LD2 D  automatic detection system with no call points  



gets coat

[kurnal]

I know it's difficult to get a mental picture of this place and I'm not too much help as I've never been there... but this is how it has been described to me last night in the pub!.... there are 4 bedrooms 2 situated at the top of  the staircase (within it) and two within a communal area on the first floor just off the staircase. All bedrooms are having fire doors fitted

When you come out of these latter two bedrooms there is this a communal area than leads directly to what will be a protected staircase that leads directly to outside...

The communal area has two leather chairs, a fabric bench seat type thing, an oak coffee table and some magazines to read and that's it...the ceiling is wooden strips placed directly on to the original plasterboard ceiling

All fabrics are current BS standard

A LD2 grade D alarm system will be installed

Now the Fire Officers notice has apparently quoted a passage out of the sleeping guide

"All corridors serving sleeping areas should be protected routes with 30 minutes fire resistance."

Is the communal area classed as a corridor because it leads to the protected stairway and if so does it have to be cleared?

The TD is within the limits to the protected stairway

Does the wooden ceiling need a flame retardant coating?

I know I know I said no more questions..

They got lost in the thread Mushy.

You need to decide whether the common area is a protected corridor  and therefore part of the exit route in stage 2, or a room - in which case your bedrooms are inner rooms and then we have a problem.  If its a protected corridor it should be sterile and have surface finishes to class O in the ideal world.

Your risk assessment will have to recognise the weaknesses and incorporate measures to reduce the level of risk as far as is reasonably practicable - in the most extreme this could mean removing the ceiling lining and keeping the area sterile, or minimising the combustible materials, eliminating ignition sources and leaving the ceiling as it  is. We would all have different views on what may be reasonably practicable.

Testing and maintenance- educate the user to test the system weekly by operating all devices. If the building is unoccupied for a period, test the system on return.

Clean the detectors periodically in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. (usually an annual hoovering but more frequently in dusty conditions)

[Ricardo]

what's the procedure and timescale for testing a LD2 D  automatic detection system with no call points

Hi Mushy

 The BS recommends for systems other than Grade A, that the user carries out weekly tests by operating all alarm sounders, this may be accomplished by using the test button.
For Grade D systems, where deposits of dust or dirt are likely to accumulate before detectors are cleaned or changed at frequencies recommended by the supplier, more frequent cleaning or replacement should be carried out.

[Mushy]

Thank you Kurnal and Ricardo

She has since told me that the fire authority are a bit uppety about this communal room...mainly because of a bookcase in the corner that is used for guest to read while in there ( the books not the bookcase )  


She has now bought the sleeping guide! ....and is saying that an access room can be allowed as long as it has smoke detection..which it will have....she is also saying that this is not a corridor but a room

Oh the joys of being an ex firefighter  

I'm not sure what the chap who is carrying out the FRA is saying...maybe she should just go along with him!!

[kurnal]

She has now bought the sleeping guide! ....and is saying that an access room can be allowed as long as it has smoke detection..which it will have....she is also saying that this is not a corridor but a room

Yes the guide does say that and it is wide open to interpretation. I believe it was intended to cover some existing hotel suites where the access room is in the control of the person in the inner bedroom, it is still most undesirable but it does not say that.

So we cant criticise someone for taking the guidance on its face value. Or can we?

[nearlythere]

She has now bought the sleeping guide! ....and is saying that an access room can be allowed as long as it has smoke detection..which it will have....she is also saying that this is not a corridor but a room

Yes the guide does say that and it is wide open to interpretation. I believe it was intended to cover some existing hotel suites where the access room is in the control of the person in the inner bedroom, it is still most undesirable but it does not say that.

So we cant criticise someone for taking the guidance on its face value. Or can we?

Think this point was discussed in the past. The definition of a corridor.
Can a corridor be a long narrow room? Can a room be a short wide corridor?

[Mushy]

Thanks all

news just in...

Although the Notice stated that 'all corrodors serving sleeping accomodation should be a protected route with 30 minutes fire resistance'...a straight pull from the guide...

the fire risk assessor is saying that he is going to put in his FRA that this is not a corridor but an access room with minimal contents and therefore his assessment is that he considers it acceptable

as I've said there are two leather chairs, a coffee table  a chaise longue and two bookcases and there will be auto detection

We'll see which way this one goes

[jokar]

Just a mut point, I have just returned from Austria and stayed in a typical tirolean hotel.  The doors to the rooms were pine panelled with no s&s or s/c devices.  The staircases were not fitted with doors and whilst detection and warning were mentioned I ailed to spot any of this.  EEL and 1996 signs were about.  The point is, did I feel unsafe in this environment with a full smoking hotel, made me cough and choke too much, and open kitchen /lounge through all the floors of the hotel.

Forgetting the legislation for a minute, the assessment of risk was much different with a much higher fire hazard rating and a much higher fuel load than a traditioanl B&B, guest house or hotel in England and Wales which are assessed as a much higher risk.

[Mushy]

Did you feel unsafe jokar?

The latest on this guest house is that the assessor and fire officer met and the outcome is that with the minimum of furniture and auto detection in the communal room it is allowed to stay as a communal room complete with bookcases.

The assessor classified the risk as high as it stands but says that with all the alarms and fire doors etc this will go down to a medium/normal

when you assessors are doing a FRA is the high/medium/ low (or whichever way it's classified) the risk of a fire starting or the risk to people should a fire start....or both?

[jokar]

No, I did not feel unsafe at all.  Assessors should be doing both which when you come down to it the, in my humble opinion, overprovision mentioned in this post, may not be abpout fire hazard and fire risk but property protection which is quite different.

[Mushy]

jokar

sorry mate I'm unsure what you mean

are you saying the need for LD2 Grade D and fire doors to bedrooms and the single staircase in the guest house that I'm talking about is over provision?

Probably got you wrong...tis been a long day