Author Topic: Guest house  (Read 85704 times)

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2008, 04:11:39 PM »
Quote from: wee brian
Parmjit Dhanda has just been sacked!
You mean theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  Parmjit Dhanda?

Who's Parmjit Dhanda then? The MP type?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom W

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« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2008, 10:26:12 AM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7654073.stm

Gloucester MP Parmjit Dhanda said he was "disappointed" to lose his junior ministerial post in Gordon Brown's government reshuffle.

He was appointed as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government on 29 June 2007.

The role has gone to Tooting Labour MP Sadiq Khan in the reshuffle.

Mr Dhanda said his demotion would give him the chance to concentrate on constituency matters.

"Of course it was a disappointment, but ministerial jobs come and go," he said on his website.

"It's been a real honour to serve my country as an education minister and then as a CLG (Communities and Local Government) minister covering the fire service and community cohesion issues.

"I am now looking forward to having more time for bread and butter causes in Gloucester.

"It was for this reason that I decided to turn down the prime minister's offer (of a non-ministerial post) and return full-time to the backbenches."

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2008, 11:10:31 AM »
Quote from: Piglet
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7654073.stm

Gloucester MP Parmjit Dhanda said he was "disappointed" to lose his junior ministerial post in Gordon Brown's government reshuffle.

He was appointed as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government on 29 June 2007.

The role has gone to Tooting Labour MP Sadiq Khan in the reshuffle.

Mr Dhanda said his demotion would give him the chance to concentrate on constituency matters.

"Of course it was a disappointment, but ministerial jobs come and go," he said on his website.

"It's been a real honour to serve my country as an education minister and then as a CLG (Communities and Local Government) minister covering the fire service and community cohesion issues.

"I am now looking forward to having more time for bread and butter causes in Gloucester.

"It was for this reason that I decided to turn down the prime minister's offer (of a non-ministerial post) and return full-time to the backbenches."
You mean he was useless as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government covering the fire service and community cohesion issues.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Ricardo

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« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2008, 02:33:05 PM »
Quote from: jokar
a new, more user-friendly leaflet for small accommodation providers about their responsibilities under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (“RRFSO”).
We support the new leaflet.
Anyone know if this leaflet is available to browse on the internet?

Offline FSO

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« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2008, 05:36:03 PM »
Still draft.
This is the text from the leaflet.

Fire safety for smaller B&B’s, self-catering holiday and similar accommodation
This section is intended to provide the operators of very small bed and breakfast and self catering accommodation, farms, bunkhouses and similar establishments with simple and straightforward guidance on what fire safety precautions may be necessary to make your premises safe and comply with the law.
Because of large variations in age, construction and layout of this type of accommodation any advice must be applied with common sense. What may be appropriate in a modern self catering apartment may not be sufficient in a three hundred year old coaching house. If you specifically market to people with disabilities you may have to do more.  – Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Means of Escape for Disabled People – available for free download at www.communities.gov.uk provides valuable advice.
If your premises are comparable with an average sized family home, the precautions necessary will generally be simpler than those required for people sleeping in larger premises with more complex layouts.
The following advice is not suitable for larger accommodation. There is no absolute definition of what is a large bed & breakfast establishment.  If your premises are significantly larger than an average family home or include long, unusual or complex escape routes, e.g. more than 12m, to the final exit door then you will probably need more sophisticated fire safety arrangements.
For such premises you should consult HM Government guide – Fire Safety Risk Assessment – Sleeping Accommodation – available for free download via www.communities.gov.uk
After working through steps one, two and the first part of step three of your fire risk assessment you should have removed all obvious hazards and reduced the risk considerably.
 
The next thing you should think of is, “how will a fire be detected and how will the people in my premises be alerted”?
Automatic Fire Detection and Alarm systems
Bed and Breakfast or self-catering holiday lets of up to two storeys and occasionally premises comprising of three storeys, but still of a size comparable with an average family home, are likely to require an automatic fire detection system (designed specifically for dwellings rather than businesses) based on interconnected mains powered smoke alarms (with a battery back-up), with detectors sited in the staircase and corridors and rooms that open onto these routes including all bedrooms. (Technically this is referred to as a Grade D LD2 system as described in British Standard 5839 Part 6).
In the very smallest accommodation of no more than two storeys, with two or three guest bedrooms and short travel distances to open air, a system of interconnected (or radio interlinked) detectors with a ten year battery life, may be adequate. It will probably be best if you use a heat detector in any kitchen. (Technically this is referred to as a Grade F LD2 system as described in British Standard 5839 Part 6). Grade F systems can be self-installed and are therefore relatively inexpensive.  
As with all systems regular testing to ensure they are functioning and can be heard within each bedroom will be necessary.  They must be loud enough to wake a sleeping person. There are also similar systems available to include vibration units and flashing lights for people with hearing difficulty.
Larger premises will usually require a more sophisticated system with a control panel and manual call points. (Technically this is referred to Grade L2 as described in British Standard 5839 Part 1).
Once a small fire has been detected you should think about “how it could be put out and therefore save others in the premises?”
Fire Fighting Equipment
In small bed and breakfast accommodation and similar premises one extinguisher on each floor, hung on a bracket in the stairs and a fire blanket in the kitchen should be adequate.
Suitable multi purpose extinguishers can be brought from large retail outlets. They are guaranteed for five years and should only require the gauge checking to make sure the ‘stored pressure’ has not leaked. Make sure the instructions are clear and there is a warning to people not to tackle anything other than a very small fire.
“How will people get out of the premises?”
You should never underestimate the danger of a fire in small premises. Nearly all the people who die in fires in this country are trapped in domestic type premises.
Protection of Escape Routes
Escape routes include rooms, corridors and stairs that have to be passed through to escape from a building.  Where rooms have doors which open onto escape routes the likelihood of safe escape is reduced when a door is left open.  Even when there are fire detectors in all rooms, people may still not get an early enough warning to make a safe escape if doors are left open.  It is important that doors will hold back fire and smoke long enough to give time for escape.  For very small premises any reasonably solid timber door that fits well into its frame is likely to be sufficient.  Cheap internal “hollow egg-box” type doors are not adequate. Self-closing devices can be a good way of ensuring doors are closed but may be considered undesirable if they impact on the appearance and normal use of the building. If overhead self-closing devices are not suitable then ‘in-frame closers or rising-butt hinges may be acceptable. If the doors and walls to the stairs and corridors are substantial construction and do not have any glazed panels then they will probably be adequate. You should pay particular attention to the kitchen doors. You should include instructions to your guests to ensure all doors are closed at night alongside other fire safety information provided.
Final exit doors, such as the front or back door should always be easy to unlock and must not need a key to unlock from the inside. A simple Yale-type latch or thumb turn is usually sufficient.
 

Can people see to safely leave the premises?
Lighting of escape routes
Normal lighting switches should be easy to find. If a fire knocks out the normal internal lighting would any borrowed lighting from nearby street lamps be enough? If not, in small bed and breakfast accommodation and similar premises, rechargeable torches, prominently mounted with a sign indicating their purpose is likely to be enough.
Larger premises will require more sophisticated emergency lighting systems.
Signs
Signs are only required where they are needed. In very small premises the escape route and the front door will be obvious, even to newly arrived people. The need for emergency exit or directional signs should be minimal. If there is a special escape route which is not in normal use, then signs should be used to indicate this.
Evacuation plan and instructions
In the event of your fire alarm operating during sleeping hours, people will evacuate more quickly if they have received clear instructions at the beginning of their stay.  A simple plan and instructions on the back of the bedroom door may help. A welcome pack can contain further advice. They should be instructed to leave the building immediately by the usual exit route (e.g. stairs and front door).  The fire and rescue service can then be called from outside the premises.
All safety equipment should be regularly tested and it is good practise to keep a written record of testing and the reasons behind the outcome of the risk assessment process.
For smaller premises you should not need to employ a professional fire consultant. If you do, you should ask for references from other similar premises before making your decision.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2008, 06:41:30 PM »
Quote from: FSO
Still draft.
This is the text from the leaflet.

Fire safety for smaller B&B’s, self-catering holiday and similar accommodation
This section is intended to provide the operators of very small bed and breakfast and self catering accommodation, farms, bunkhouses and similar establishments with simple and straightforward guidance on what fire safety precautions may be necessary to make your premises safe and comply with the law.
Because of large variations in age, construction and layout of this type of accommodation any advice must be applied with common sense. What may be appropriate in a modern self catering apartment may not be sufficient in a three hundred year old coaching house. If you specifically market to people with disabilities you may have to do more.  – Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Means of Escape for Disabled People – available for free download at www.communities.gov.uk provides valuable advice.
If your premises are comparable with an average sized family home, the precautions necessary will generally be simpler than those required for people sleeping in larger premises with more complex layouts.
The following advice is not suitable for larger accommodation. There is no absolute definition of what is a large bed & breakfast establishment.  If your premises are significantly larger than an average family home or include long, unusual or complex escape routes, e.g. more than 12m, to the final exit door then you will probably need more sophisticated fire safety arrangements.
For such premises you should consult HM Government guide – Fire Safety Risk Assessment – Sleeping Accommodation – available for free download via www.communities.gov.uk
After working through steps one, two and the first part of step three of your fire risk assessment you should have removed all obvious hazards and reduced the risk considerably.
 
The next thing you should think of is, “how will a fire be detected and how will the people in my premises be alerted”?
Automatic Fire Detection and Alarm systems
Bed and Breakfast or self-catering holiday lets of up to two storeys and occasionally premises comprising of three storeys, but still of a size comparable with an average family home, are likely to require an automatic fire detection system (designed specifically for dwellings rather than businesses) based on interconnected mains powered smoke alarms (with a battery back-up), with detectors sited in the staircase and corridors and rooms that open onto these routes including all bedrooms. (Technically this is referred to as a Grade D LD2 system as described in British Standard 5839 Part 6).
In the very smallest accommodation of no more than two storeys, with two or three guest bedrooms and short travel distances to open air, a system of interconnected (or radio interlinked) detectors with a ten year battery life, may be adequate. It will probably be best if you use a heat detector in any kitchen. (Technically this is referred to as a Grade F LD2 system as described in British Standard 5839 Part 6). Grade F systems can be self-installed and are therefore relatively inexpensive.  
As with all systems regular testing to ensure they are functioning and can be heard within each bedroom will be necessary.  They must be loud enough to wake a sleeping person. There are also similar systems available to include vibration units and flashing lights for people with hearing difficulty.
Larger premises will usually require a more sophisticated system with a control panel and manual call points. (Technically this is referred to Grade L2 as described in British Standard 5839 Part 1).
Once a small fire has been detected you should think about “how it could be put out and therefore save others in the premises?”
Fire Fighting Equipment
In small bed and breakfast accommodation and similar premises one extinguisher on each floor, hung on a bracket in the stairs and a fire blanket in the kitchen should be adequate.
Suitable multi purpose extinguishers can be brought from large retail outlets. They are guaranteed for five years and should only require the gauge checking to make sure the ‘stored pressure’ has not leaked. Make sure the instructions are clear and there is a warning to people not to tackle anything other than a very small fire.
“How will people get out of the premises?”
You should never underestimate the danger of a fire in small premises. Nearly all the people who die in fires in this country are trapped in domestic type premises.
Protection of Escape Routes
Escape routes include rooms, corridors and stairs that have to be passed through to escape from a building.  Where rooms have doors which open onto escape routes the likelihood of safe escape is reduced when a door is left open.  Even when there are fire detectors in all rooms, people may still not get an early enough warning to make a safe escape if doors are left open.  It is important that doors will hold back fire and smoke long enough to give time for escape.  For very small premises any reasonably solid timber door that fits well into its frame is likely to be sufficient.  Cheap internal “hollow egg-box” type doors are not adequate. Self-closing devices can be a good way of ensuring doors are closed but may be considered undesirable if they impact on the appearance and normal use of the building. If overhead self-closing devices are not suitable then ‘in-frame closers or rising-butt hinges may be acceptable. If the doors and walls to the stairs and corridors are substantial construction and do not have any glazed panels then they will probably be adequate. You should pay particular attention to the kitchen doors. You should include instructions to your guests to ensure all doors are closed at night alongside other fire safety information provided.
Final exit doors, such as the front or back door should always be easy to unlock and must not need a key to unlock from the inside. A simple Yale-type latch or thumb turn is usually sufficient.
 

Can people see to safely leave the premises?
Lighting of escape routes
Normal lighting switches should be easy to find. If a fire knocks out the normal internal lighting would any borrowed lighting from nearby street lamps be enough? If not, in small bed and breakfast accommodation and similar premises, rechargeable torches, prominently mounted with a sign indicating their purpose is likely to be enough.
Larger premises will require more sophisticated emergency lighting systems.
Signs
Signs are only required where they are needed. In very small premises the escape route and the front door will be obvious, even to newly arrived people. The need for emergency exit or directional signs should be minimal. If there is a special escape route which is not in normal use, then signs should be used to indicate this.
Evacuation plan and instructions
In the event of your fire alarm operating during sleeping hours, people will evacuate more quickly if they have received clear instructions at the beginning of their stay.  A simple plan and instructions on the back of the bedroom door may help. A welcome pack can contain further advice. They should be instructed to leave the building immediately by the usual exit route (e.g. stairs and front door).  The fire and rescue service can then be called from outside the premises.
All safety equipment should be regularly tested and it is good practise to keep a written record of testing and the reasons behind the outcome of the risk assessment process.
For smaller premises you should not need to employ a professional fire consultant. If you do, you should ask for references from other similar premises before making your decision.
Appears fairly sensible really. However, there could be many disputes over what is a smaller, very small, very smallest, small, average size, large and larger premises.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Ricardo

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« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2008, 07:02:05 PM »
Thanks FSO
It certainly all looks very reasonable, practical  and not financially overbearing measures for the B & B, etc owners to consider to me. Lets hope that common sense is the winner and that all parties can work together to achieve a common goal, a "reasonably practicable" "risk proportionate" fire safe enviroment for the service users. Can you get a leaflet and send it up north of the border, so that the Scots can join in with this great idea.
Should I assume that this is not just an English problem??

Offline Davidrh

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« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2008, 09:27:34 AM »
What a total mess this whole Fire Regs is getting in. Why oh why did the regs have to be changed.
Its what makes Britain the basket case it is today. A complete lack and total of common sense.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2008, 09:35:39 AM »
Quote from: Davidrh
What a total mess this whole Fire Regs is getting in. Why oh why did the regs have to be changed.
Its what makes Britain the basket case it is today. A complete lack and total of common sense.
Yes lets go back to fire certs for some buildings, risk assesments for others, licenses for some, bugger all for many.

Thing with common sense is - that it aint very common.

Offline Davidrh

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« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2008, 09:49:10 AM »
What is commom sense about making totally unqualified people legally responsible RP's
I don't care what you all say. IT IS TOTAL NONSENSE
Its like HIPS, Speed cameras, Immigration, Outlandish welfare payments, Licensing controls. Health & Safety excesses.................. etc etc etc etc etc etc etc and more ets's
Great Britain 2008. Jobsworth heaven.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2008, 10:16:16 AM »
Quote from: Davidrh
What a total mess this whole Fire Regs is getting in. Why oh why did the regs have to be changed.
Its what makes Britain the basket case it is today. A complete lack and total of common sense.
The fire regs changed to place the burden on those who are creating the risk - you and those like you. Its intention is for you to take ownership of the risk and so control it. The politicians want you, as the risk owner, to pay the cost of reducing any risk to peoples safety, and not the taxpayer. The F&R Services will then ensure that you, the risk owner, control it properly. This is nothing new, it is just more targeted.

The standards required to control the risk didn't change that much. They have been around for years. It's just that many employers outside the enforcement net ignored them.

I trust the new draft guidance for B&Bs, if it is implimented, pleases you? It does seem a little more sensible as most would agree.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2008, 10:19:36 AM »
Quote from: Davidrh
I don't care what you all say. IT IS TOTAL NONSENSE
A well reasoned argument.

However, since IIRC you appeared on this forum with a moan about what a fire service required of you to comply with the legislation, and it seems that you would rather have the old legislation back, think about it like this:

If you were to apply for a fire certificate now, you would simply HAVE to do what we say, or you don't get the certificate. And you also HAVE to keep it like we say or you could get prosecuted.

It seems to me that you don't want to be responsible for your premises, but you also don't like Authorities telling you what to do.

I shall email the CLG immediately with a suggestion of a new "Regulatory Reform (The fire service are fully responsible, but they can't actually ask for anything) Order 2009"

I fully apologise if a hint of sarcasm is evident in this posting.

Offline JC100

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« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2008, 10:25:20 AM »
Quote from: Davidrh
What is commom sense about making totally unqualified people legally responsible RP's
I don't care what you all say. IT IS TOTAL NONSENSE
If the RP feels that they are not competant to carry out the FRA, they should get advice or use someone who is. The RP should have been ensuring that means of escape and the safety of employees / guests/ residents were covered by their H&S assessment if not in possession of a fire certificate. If they had been doing this, the introduction of the RR(FS)O wouldn't be much more than recording their findings on a separate form.

The problem is that businesses who weren't previously doing this now find themselves in the situation where they can face large fines and bad publicity if they don't comply; and they are using various excuses and 'slagging' off the order to vent their anger to protest about spending money to ensure the safety of the very people they are responsible for.

Offline Davidrh

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« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2008, 11:05:06 AM »
Reading all the comments on this forum it seems that the situation is that the RP has no choice but to use an advisor.
In an earlier posting I bulked about my local fire brigade requesting smoke seals on my forty hotel bedroom doors.
I got lots of (I though good) advise from you folk and composed a response to the local senior fire officer who visited my premises.
My response consisited of about 6 or 7 postings (obviously without mentioning authors or this site) (Remember I am a hotelier NOT a fireman so I am frantically looking for help anywhere I can get it)
Guess what. He totally rubished your comments and advice in each and every case ????????????????????
So going back to the RP (who has the legal responsibily..yes) getting advise from outside sources. Whose to tell that advise will be accepted by the local FO. (and in any case is relevant)
I simple do not agree with the concept of an RP as it stants at the moment
I mean do you want Richard Branson to fly the plane just because he owns the business and caused the risk ?????????????

Offline JC100

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« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2008, 11:10:52 AM »
Quote from: Davidrh
I mean do you want Richard Branson to fly the plane just because he owns the business and caused the risk ?????????????
No, course i don't. But i do want Richard Branson to ensure he has correctly qualified pilots and servicable aircraft to fly me.