No need for fire extinguishers cos we've got sprinklers

[jokar]

IF the evacuation plan has a need for staff to move people such as in PHE or Zonal then the provision of FFE may well be not necessary.  There are a large number of care facilities out there without the provision of ffe because of the need to evacuate as a priority.  As FRS state get the brigade out, they are the professional firefighters, a term that is used in the RR(FS)O which has a number of conotations with regard to training and the ability to fight fire.

[Paul2886]

IF the evacuation plan has a need for staff to move people such as in PHE or Zonal then the provision of FFE may well be not necessary.  There are a large number of care facilities out there without the provision of ffe because of the need to evacuate as a priority.  As FRS state get the brigade out, they are the professional firefighters, a term that is used in the RR(FS)O which has a number of conotations with regard to training and the ability to fight fire.

The term 'fight' implies a battle to me. Not all fires will be a battle. Pouring a glass of water for instance into a rubbish bin with some smouldering paper would not probably be a fight. Most fires start as baby ones and I'm sure, if no one else, the insurance companys would prefer a few extinguishers to be around the place.
Extinguisher training for staff should not be designed to make them into fire 'fighters' but to help them make the decision as to when and whether to use them. At the end of the day a 9 litre water extinguisher is just a bucket of water with a rubber thing attached to aim it at the fire and a sort of 'tap'  thing on top to stop and start it.
Of course the trainer needs to explain that the wind will not be blowing the smoke across the cornfields, like when practicing outside, and to walk round the fire to check there are no remaining pockets of fire is a definate no-no inside.
And of couse people are the priority but there is a place for extinguishers. Oh, and I'm not an extinguisher salesman

[jokar]

There is an ssumption here that all staff will be able to use an extinguisher and that may not be the case, there are also assumptions that all people will and could use an extinguisher and again that may not be the case.  It all depends and that is where the FRA comes in, an analysis of all the circumstances and what the RP wants staff or the public to do.  FFE was provided at the Station Night Club, it was not a lot of use in there.  Not all fires are the same not all circumstances are the same that is why assessment is important.

[CivvyFSO]

from RRO Guidance note 1:

Fire-fighting equipment should be considered as a means of both prevention and
protection. For example, preventing a small fire growing out of control and spreading
beyond the area of origin, affecting the means of escape and posing a risk to relevant
persons. It is likely therefore that some form of fire fighting equipment will be necessary
in almost all cases.

[Thomas Brookes]

There is an ssumption here that all staff will be able to use an extinguisher and that may not be the case, there are also assumptions that all people will and could use an extinguisher and again that may not be the case.  It all depends and that is where the FRA comes in, an analysis of all the circumstances and what the RP wants staff or the public to do.  FFE was provided at the Station Night Club, it was not a lot of use in there.  Not all fires are the same not all circumstances are the same that is why assessment is important.

The Station Night Club was particularly nasty and shows in graphic detail how bad a fire can be, how ever if you look at the video who knows what may have happend if two or three people trained in the use of extinguishers had fired powders at the start of this blaze "maybe in the first 10 to 15 seconds".

[jokar]

The safest thing at all times is to evacuate, I know numbers of FRS people that head straight for exits on the hearing of voice or sounder messages or coded alerts.  And insist on FFE to a prescriptive level.

No one is saying that FFE is never necessary as it may be on a RA basis but not to levels that some advocat.  You have to take into account all the factors including who will use them and are they able to.

[nearlythere]

from RRO Guidance note 1:

Fire-fighting equipment should be considered as a means of both prevention and
protection. For example, preventing a small fire growing out of control and spreading
beyond the area of origin, affecting the means of escape and posing a risk to relevant
persons. It is likely therefore that some form of fire fighting equipment will be necessary
in almost all cases.

Nothing positive there about having to provide FAFFE CivvyFSO.

Article 13 (1)(a) essentially states that, where neccessary, FAFFE should be provided where it is appropriate. It does not say that it is neccessary to provide appropriate FAFFE. Two different things.

I'm still to be convinced that there is a specific requirement to provide FAFFE.

Further to this Art. 13 (1)(b) states that any non automatic FFFE so provided is accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs. This means that this Article acknowledges that automatic FFFE is classed as a means of firefighting.

[CivvyFSO]

"It is likely therefore that some form of fire fighting equipment will be necessary in almost all cases."

We have also had policy from above basically saying that there will be very few scenarios that do not warrant FFE.

There were earlier documents from meetings prior to the RRO coming out discussing the "where necessary" concept in the upcoming RRO, and IIRC the intention was that it actually means that it should be provided, but WHERE and HOW MUCH is up to the risk assessment.

I agree it is muddy waters, and there are imaginable places where you could say FFE is pointless and thus not required, but people will try to push the boundaries all the time and then the arguments appear about not having FFE due to the provision of sprinklers etc.

Another way to look at it is: If someone had a sprinklered office/warehouse/nightclub/shop and decided to not have any FFE, if discussions showed that they refused to get any then I would without any doubt issue an enforcement notice for that FFE. The argument would be sorted out for us all during the appeals process. FSOs naughty boys home example above is a different matter IMO.

[FSO]

There is an ssumption here that all staff will be able to use an extinguisher and that may not be the case, there are also assumptions that all people will and could use an extinguisher and again that may not be the case.  It all depends and that is where the FRA comes in, an analysis of all the circumstances and what the RP wants staff or the public to do.  FFE was provided at the Station Night Club, it was not a lot of use in there.  Not all fires are the same not all circumstances are the same that is why assessment is important.

The Station Night Club was particularly nasty and shows in graphic detail how bad a fire can be, how ever if you look at the video who knows what may have happend if two or three people trained in the use of extinguishers had fired powders at the start of this blaze "maybe in the first 10 to 15 seconds".

Obviously you have seen the NIST research implying what sprinklers would have done at this fire?

[jokar]

Yes I have, but we are chatting about extinguishers and their use as opposed to the provision of sprinklers.

[CivvyFSO]

I think one of the points sprinkler advocates might point out is that the simulation involving sprinklers showed a scenario where the fire was controlled, possibly extinguished, and lives would have been saved. Extinguishers in place at the nightclub were not used, so provision of FFE saved nobody, whereas the provision of sprinklers would have saved many if not all of the lives lost. So looking at it from this point of view, if I wanted to install sprinklers in a nightclub and not bother with FFE, this scenario can make it look like sprinklers are by far the best option. The easy point to miss is that FFE/lack of sprinklers was not the error, fire retardant treated fabrics/wall/ceiling coverings would have possibly saved those lives.

[FSO]

Maybe.

Thank you for your comments Jokar, but I fail to see how my post disuedes from this 'chat'.

It just goes to show that the station fire relied on the human factor. Take away that factor and possibly alot of lives could have been saved.

FFE is fantastic all the time somebody is competent in its use. You can train all you like but it will not always make the lay person confident in its use.

I am not saying sprinklers are the be all and end all, but at least they do not rely on somebody thinking about what to do.

I feel in some circumstances, they can reduce and sometimes replace the need for portable FFE.

[jokar]

I agree, there is a place for FFE and a place for sprinklers.  This may or may not be in the same premises or builidng but a good FRA will assist in the application of this.

[FSO]

100% agree jokar