Nursing / Care Homes

[carol]

You could always try waiting for the ODPM's 'guide to premises that provide care'. Ha, Ha.

Notice how the door was left open for further delays in bringing the RRO into force post April 2006

And Colin, Stay put is OK and practised extensively in the North, although admittedly normally in Sheltered Housing. All to do with those fabulous construction and management standards.

[Ken Taylor]

In my experience, sheltered accommodation can vary considerably - particularly with some of the older construction. 'Stay put' may not always be the better option and would normaly only apply to the actual flats rather than the communal areas such as meeting rooms, laundries, tenants halls, etc that some have. Some sheltered accommodation shares facilities with residential care whilst other is a block of flats among others that are conventional housing. We certainly had some like this with a 'stay put' philosophy in my local government days. As to residential and nursing care, I would not support staying put as an approved action - not the least because of the duty of care and control implications for those providing the facility. However, progressive evacuation may well still be progressing when the brigade arrive and appropriate decisions can be made based upon the actual situation at the time.

[mark1london]

Carol, what would you prefer, ODPM to rush and get slapdash guidance out, or to take their time and get it right? In both cases you'd criticize them, by the look of your comment. I know which I'd prefer.

[wee brian]

Stay put is well established for Flats and Sheltered accom (where its like a block of flats). There are some people suggesting that the way forward for res care is something similar.

In practice its very difficult for a couple of carers to get (say) a dozen patients out of their bedrooms before the corridor is filled with smoke.

Opening the door from a smoke filled corridor into an unaffected bedroom to evacuate somebody may well kill them instead. They may be better off staying in their rooms, they may have to!

AS for the ODPM guides, these are for risk assessment in existing premises, they won't have the sort of detail required to design a new care home.

[colin todd]

Ken has got it right. In many cases, sheltered housing is just a special case of a block of flats for which stay put has always been the advocated procedure, and it is usually fine unless the block was built in the 1960s when they were cavalier about the (lack of ) fire stopping. Res care is something else entirely. I should not think it would have worked well at Rosepark, but we will see when the fatal accident inquiry is eventually held.

[carol]

Mark1

Apologies for my slightly flippant remark but I, like you, have a pretty good understanding of the way the whole RRO/guidance thing works.

If the ODPM had really listened, unlike the 'targeted consultations' and lip service paid to some other well meaning organisations, then many of the delays will not have occurred.

The FSAB was disolved, I believe, on a political/civil service whim and this removed a valuable layer of advice from the department.
Several of this group, including most of the main stakeholders, argued in favour of a risk assessment guide followed by short guides targeted at particular purpose groups. I believe, unofficially, that the consultants now emptying the ODPM's coffers, also would prefer to re-write in this format.

Several problems were pointed out in the RRO, some as long ago as late 2003 and yet they were only addressed last week.

If the ODPM didn't appear to think that all stakeholders only had a narrow self interest agenda then much of this would have been sorted months ago.

[colin todd]

Remind me what good did the FSAB ever do for mankind??

[wee brian]

Colin

Rather like you, it made a nuisance of itself. Difference is that you can't be got rid of so easily.

WB

[Brian Downes]

1.
Fire Safety in Care Homes for Older People and Children

Dr Don Christian

BSI, BIP 2004

ISBN 0 580 41427 2

2.
If premises are registerd with Commission for Social Care Inspection the outcomes detailed in their National Minimum Standards Documents will need to be taken into account. Most of The documents also detail in full the requirements of the relevant regulations (Care Homes Regulations and Children's Homes Regulations 2001)

[colin todd]

NM, Brian. Next round of cuts, we will get rid of even more civil servants, who are a nuisance to the pocket of those who create the nation's wealth, rather than just spend it.

[Brian Downes]

Colin,
         Indeed, National Care Standards Commission, Commission for Social Care Inspection. I don't know about cuts, I understand that possibly another Quango is already being conceived to replace CSCI,Hey Ho!

[Ken Taylor]

Destined, I believe for the Health Development Agency (under the present administration).