Author Topic: Batteries calculation ?  (Read 94956 times)

Offline Benzerari

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Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #120 on: November 17, 2008, 09:22:54 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Brookes
You lot have to much time on your hands, Has anyone got a programme that will do the calculations.
The dispute and discussions went on, to explain the right method rather than how to use batt. calculation program, once the method is clear enough, it wouldn't be a big issue to program it, then use its program :)

Offline Wiz

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Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #121 on: November 17, 2008, 09:31:11 PM »
Quote from: Benzerari
..........It was a French scientist, who first invented VRLA (Valve Regulated Sealed Lead Acid) batteries a while ago! :D
Benz, surely you are talking about the lead acid bit. I think you'll find the valve regulation came much much later.

Offline Wiz

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Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #122 on: November 17, 2008, 09:36:38 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Brookes
You lot have to much time on your hands, Has anyone got a programme that will do the calculations.
Thomas, are you looking for a programme to calculate the capacity of batteries required in a system (i.e. design) or for a programme to calculate the likely standby duty of the existing batteries insatalled in an existing system (maintenance)?

Offline Thomas Brookes

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Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #123 on: November 18, 2008, 07:40:44 AM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Thomas Brookes
You lot have to much time on your hands, Has anyone got a programme that will do the calculations.
Thomas, are you looking for a programme to calculate the capacity of batteries required in a system (i.e. design) or for a programme to calculate the likely standby duty of the existing batteries insatalled in an existing system (maintenance)?
If youve got them both would be great.
I refuse to have a battle of wittts with an unarmed person.

Offline Benzerari

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Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #124 on: November 18, 2008, 12:03:41 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Benzerari
..........It was a French scientist, who first invented VRLA (Valve Regulated Sealed Lead Acid) batteries a while ago! :D
Benz, surely you are talking about the lead acid bit. I think you'll find the valve regulation came much much later.
When, where and by who? it needs proper referencing in this issue! :)

Offline Benzerari

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2008, 08:22:42 PM »
I Have recently found in one site, the batteries box fitted far away from the fire alarm panel, say 25-30m, the question is:

1-  Would that distance affect the batteries capacity calculation?
2-  Would that distance cause volt drop?

I also found in some other different sites, the batteries box fitted in the basement while the main panel fitted in ground floor entrance, the distance is about 60m
 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 11:55:43 PM by Benzerari »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #126 on: December 23, 2008, 09:25:40 AM »
I Have recently found in one site, the batteries box fitted far away from the fire alarm panel, say 25-30m, the question is:

1-  Would that distance affect the batteries capacity calculation?
2-  Would that distance cause volt drop?

I also found in some other different sites, the batteries box fitted in the basement while the main panel fitted in ground floor entrance, the distance is about 60m
 


This has no apreciable effect on the battery capacity calculation.

There are obviously some volt drop issues. However fire alarms take relatively small currents and 60m of, say, 1.5mm cable would add very little volt drop even on full load. Obviously all volt drop on full load needs to be taken into consideration but it is likely to be a small problem in most cases.

The big problem with remotely sited batteries is the volt-drop affecting the charge circuit monitoring. This is not a problem on remotely sited batteries that also contain the charging circuit. The voltage of a battery is critical in the decision of how an automatic charging circuit will decide on how to continue charging it.

For example,a nominal 24v fire alarm system, will charge it's SLA batteries to obtain a full charge indicated as something in the the region of 27.5V. i.e below this voltage the charger will continue to try and charge them to reach that voltage and when it reaches it, the charging current rate will reduce to give them a trickle charge.

If you try to charge above trickle charge rate when the battery reaches it's fully-charged state (as indicated by a voltage of approx. 27.5V) then this will damage the batteries by overcharging them.

Therefore if your batteries are sited 60m away from the charging circuit, when the charging circuit monitors the battery voltage (to determine their charge state) it may get a reading of, say, 26.5V and decide it needs to continue charging the batteries at a higher than trickle charge rate. However if your 60m of cable is actaully causing a 1V volt drop due to the length of the connecting cable, then the batteries are actually at 27.5V (and fully charged). The false battery voltage reading due to the volt drop will cause the charger to carry on charging at a higher than necessary rate and damage the batteries.

In my experience, even a distance of a few metres between charging circuit and battery creates enough volt drop to affect the charging circuit and a 2.5mm or 4mm battery connection is required. You might find that 60m of cable requires a very hefty sized cable to get around the problem!

Graeme

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #127 on: December 23, 2008, 06:03:09 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: Thomas Brookes
You lot have to much time on your hands, Has anyone got a programme that will do the calculations.
Thomas, are you looking for a programme to calculate the capacity of batteries required in a system (i.e. design) or for a programme to calculate the likely standby duty of the existing batteries insatalled in an existing system (maintenance)?
If youve got them both would be great.

Thomas

don't know waht you use but i use Advanced and Apollo. Use the Apollo loop cal to get your I1 and I2 per loop and then transfer onto the Advanced panle calculator to get your min batteries required. I will e-mail you if needed.

Graeme.,

Offline Thomas Brookes

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #128 on: December 23, 2008, 08:56:28 PM »
Would be good, if you can email it, tom@lindumfire.co.uk
I refuse to have a battle of wittts with an unarmed person.

Graeme

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #129 on: December 24, 2008, 11:29:30 AM »
done. you have mail

Offline Thomas Brookes

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #130 on: December 26, 2008, 10:57:18 AM »
Thanks Greame,

I refuse to have a battle of wittts with an unarmed person.

Offline Benzerari

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2009, 04:51:24 PM »
Gent Vigilon has two separate sets of standby batteries, each supplies around 24Vdc, thus 2 batt. inputs to the system. The question is;

In order to satisfy BAFE batteries calculation, is it a must to make batteries calculation for each set of batteries and thus each set has to supply above 70% capacity..., or their sum should supply above 70% capacity?

What do you think?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:53:45 AM by Benzerari »

Offline Benzerari

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #132 on: March 24, 2009, 09:48:15 AM »
Also for radio system, the batteries in charge of supplying power to an alarm output is the batteries fitted in the each sounder device and not the main standby battery at the panel, obviously if the hard wired outpout radial circuit is not used, the question is;

- Is it a must to check batteries in every single sounder device and see if it still above 70% of its capacity?
- What about the batteries calculation, is it really required in this issue?

What do you think
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 01:50:06 PM by Benzerari »

Offline Benzerari

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #133 on: March 31, 2009, 06:58:29 PM »
Gent Vigilon has two separate sets of standby batteries, each supplies around 24Vdc, thus 2 batteries inputs to the system. The question is;

In order to satisfy BAFE batteries calculation, is it a must to make batteries calculation for each set of batteries and thus each set has to supply above 70% capacity, or their sum should supply above 70% capacity?

What do you think?


Need some clear answer to the above Guys! also why Gent haven't combined its sets of batteries into one single set to clear out this ambiguity?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 09:04:27 AM by Benzerari »

Offline Ark Angel

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Re: Batteries calculation ?
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2009, 08:25:15 PM »
Benz,

I think you'll find that the current Gent Vigilon only has one set of batteries...
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