Disbabled evacuation from domestic properties, managed by managing age

[ps]

Hi there - I am hoping someone can help me here - Ive just had a report done by a H&S consultancy for FRA for common areas of 2 domestic sets of flat.  They give several recommentations which are useful but some seems a little daft and impractical

For disabled persons they suggest we may have some "social responsibilty" to find out the range of disabiliites residents may have and put in place things such as evac chairs in the landings?  There are no staff or contractors who work in the building who have any disability - Ive never come acorss this before and cant see how it would work, are they seriously suggesting that we stop someone's granny from visiting on the 8th floor cos the other residents havent agreed to fund evac chairs - and is 85 year old fred expected to use it (with his bad back and no training)  I would have thought the responsibility lies with the disabled person either buying a flat in such cirs (when presumably they rely on the compatmentisation of thier own flat for protection) or have their own plan in place agreed with their own friends and family - not the managing agent?

They also say we shoud have an evac plan displayed that takes into account disabled persons?

Other than - return to your flat can call the fire bridage if you are incapable for leaving the building, I can't think of anything else I could put?

I do hope I don't come across as hard hearted or in some way caviller re the rights of disabled persons - but given the range of disabilities - they person could be deaf (we have sounders only) blind (no braille signs) difficulty walking (we have stairs and a lift that reurns to ground floor) or simply have broken their leg?! We would have no way of knowing - and surely this is a personal responsibilty as there persons are not at work - help please!

[jokar]

Depends on the evacuation strategy, if it is defend in place and the separation is 60 minutes then I see no point in what has been suggested.  The only place in theory a fire could start is in the tenant area and the means of escape is a sterile safe area for travelling.  It seems to be a lack of understanding of a) the circumstances and b) the legislation.

[ps]

Hi thanks for that - they didnt look at fire doors etc or comment about the amount of protection they gave. Am I right in thinking that in a purpose built block of flats, built in 2001/2 that the separation will be to 60 mins under current building regs?

They also ask in their report, Are there "Reasonable arrangements for means of escape for disabled occupants?"  Their answer is   "Lift is fire safe and can be used by fire brigade in an emergency."   when I questioned if they meant that any disabled person could use it themselves to get out they said "This is an observation as to the status of the lift. We did not say that it should be used by persons other than the fire brigade in an emergency."  

Can such lift be used by residents - I thought the norm was to programme them to return to the ground floor and it was for the fire brigade to use to help them fight a fire from the appropriate place in a building without having to go un the stairs (which residents may be coming down)

[wee brian]

Don't ever use these people again. They don't seem to know what they are about.

Your observations are perfectly reasonable. Firefighting lifts woudnt normally used by residents although it is technically possible.

For blocks of flats, people who need to escape (most of them won't if the fire doors etc are up to scratch) but can't are in need of rescue.... That's what the fire service do.

Once you get into care homes and sheltered accom it all gets much more complicated.

[nearlythere]

Hi thanks for that - they didnt look at fire doors etc or comment about the amount of protection they gave. Am I right in thinking that in a purpose built block of flats, built in 2001/2 that the separation will be to 60 mins under current building regs?

They also ask in their report, Are there "Reasonable arrangements for means of escape for disabled occupants?"  Their answer is   "Lift is fire safe and can be used by fire brigade in an emergency."   when I questioned if they meant that any disabled person could use it themselves to get out they said "This is an observation as to the status of the lift. We did not say that it should be used by persons other than the fire brigade in an emergency."  

Can such lift be used by residents - I thought the norm was to programme them to return to the ground floor and it was for the fire brigade to use to help them fight a fire from the appropriate place in a building without having to go un the stairs (which residents may be coming down)

Agree with wee brian re consultants. Their assessment sounds little spooky to me. Have they been paid yet? If not don't.
Unless lifts are specificially designed for use for escape then they should not be used for such purposes.
I'm absolutely sure that the Fire & Rescue Service will not use lift in any fire situation unless it is clear that they are specifically designed and installed for that purpose.
It would be interesting to know the background of the assessors.

[colin todd]

I blame the schools. They don't teach people to read badly written regulations written by coyping out Eurobabble, and so people (wrongly) think that everything in the Really Rotten (F*** S****) Order is a prescriptive requirement. People are putting fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers and signs in blocks of flats in the (incorrect) certainty that this is now required.

Big Gordy should insist that all schools teach Eurobabble as a language instead of Spanish.

[kurnal]

Just be a bit wary about assuming that the lift has any additional safety precautions whatsoever just because it has a firemans switch. If your flats were built before the 1990s it will most likely be a standard lift car with no extra safety precautions. Does the lift door open into a common lobby with flats opening into it? If so standard passenger lift guaranteed.

[AnthonyB]

Ditto to the above.

Interesting to see the report is by a H&S consultancy - was it a fire specialist who did the report or a H&S consultant?

It's very difficult, due to the subject depth to be able to do both well in many cases. i keep my Chartered Safety Practitioner status up, but rarely use and am picky as to when I do because I know I would be too rusty and have lost the knack to truly risk assess on safety matters (would need to regain experience and revise laws) and would default on code hugging.

We do cross train some of our H&S staff, but are selective on what fire work they are given (often revisits) and always maintain oversight.

[ps]

Thanks so much guys its nice to know that good old common sense can sometimes prevail!  Sadly the bill has been paid - but certainly won't be using them again!

[ps]

A final question on this - in a newly built block - if a firemans lift is installed - it it ok for disabled persons to use this lift unaided if they get prior warning of a fire alarm for the whole block - or are they only to be used when the fire brigade are in attendance?

[riskman]

It would need to comply with the relevant standard for ecape lifts, was in the BS 5588 suite of documents, however with the introduction of BS9999 im not sure exacly. Hope it is of some help.

[kurnal]

A lift used for the evacuation of disabled people should be either an evacuation lift or a firefighting lift ( ie in a proper firefighting shaft). The lift should be operated under the control of an evacuation manager as part of the evacuation strategy for the building. It should not be used on an ad hoc basis by anybody and everybody- management and control are paramount.

In new buildings its easy to plan the installation of a suitable evacuattion lift, but where DDA has been used to allow unhindered inclusive access to all parts of a building with existing lifts you may have to be a little creative.
Sometimes a lift not designed for evacuation may be useable in some circumstances in some buildings. In other circumstances the same lift may not be suitable. It needs to be risk assessed taking into account how far outside the BS5588 part 8 benchmark the lift is currently, any strengths and weaknesses of the building that may also be counted into the assessment - if there are several lifts in the building and there is some compartmentation between them and little chance of any one fire causing the failure of both lifts simultaneously then it may be safe to use them.

[ps]

Fantastic - thank you so much for taking the time to respond - its much clearer now! I had visions of asking people to wait until the fire service got there - which I know to be against the ethos of everybody out under their own steam if at all possible.

I take it the Evacuation Manager, or warden would need training by the lift company in how to operate something - or is the idea that the lift functions in the same way as any other lift until the fire service take it over?

[Mike Buckley]

The lift will have a 'Fireman's Key' which will only allow the lift to be controlled from inside the lift. This is to stop the lift opening onto a fire where the fire has shorted the call button. It is just a key that operates a switch inside the lift.

It is simple to operate but I would suggest trainig is given.

The major problem with the Fireman's Key is that the person operating the lift leaves the key in whilst they go to fetch something someone lese walks into the lift and takes it to another floor and the evacuation officer then has to find the lift.

Been there, done that, walked up miles of stairs.

[Big T]

It is unlikely that there would ever be a requirement for residents to need to evacuate under there own steam. The building should be a stay put strategy so the only person likely to use the escape routes will be the person whos flat is on fire and the fire service. Full building evac is highly unlikley due to the fire resistant box style design of flats.

If the fire is in a flat it is unlikely that the lifts power supply would be affected so theoretically a dynamic assessment of utilising the lifts (escape lifts or not) could be considered as described in BS9999 (46.9).

Evacuation of disabled persons from a normal block of flats (Not sheltered or supported or HMO etc) could be as simple as insisting on a shelter in place procedure.  Morally its tough, but financially it is unrealistic to provide a concierge etc who is trained in evacaution. In real terms we can't say "all disabled people must live in a supported living scheme, where evacuation procedures are more robust". Blocks of flats don't burn to the ground, so sitting tight in your flat is a viable decision. Just ensure your compartmentation is of a high standard.