Author Topic: Lacors, please explain  (Read 21320 times)

Midland Retty

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2008, 02:02:49 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
The reason fire detectors were installed in rooms off escape routes was b, ecause of some evidence that IN LONG CORRIDORS WITH DOORS HAVING NO INTUMESCENT STRIPS  a corridor could be smoke logged before corridor smoke detectors operate. The use of stand alone smoke detectors in rooms, or smoke detectors rather than heat detectors CAN ONLY BE TO PROTECT OCCUPANTS OF THE ROOM. This is made clear, or we thought we had made it clear, in BS 5839-1 and BS 5839-6. If all the MR chums he works with fail to understand this, no wonder we are in such a mess.
And fire does not really care too much about the semantics of what a property is called. If its ok for your home, it will be ok in a property that looks like your home. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, probably best to feed it stale bread, not steak and chips.
Mr Todd

I made the classic mistake of not reading your previous posts properly.

I misinterpreted your comments and thought you were referring to interlinked detection and not standalone detection

Standby for a hasty Russel Brand / Jonathan Ross-esque apology! Sorry about that.
Having read your comments again I totally agree with you .

At the end of the day a resident in a HMO has control over his / her individual room / bedsit.

So long as the landlord has provided measures to warn other residents of a fire occuring should we really be asking for standalone smoke detectors as well?. (Afterall the occupant who has control over their own destiny if they decide to smoke in bed and set their room alight isn't that their own fault).

I think it boils down to HMG's desire to drive down fire deaths. Many guides recommend that standalone detectors as well as interlinked HD be installed in HMOs / Bedsit scenarios. Is it over burdensome to expect landlords to comply with this or should we be saying that the occupant must be given best possible warning.  

So no mess at all I assure you Mr Todd, some inspecting officers are really very good at their jobs and some have even been brave enough to go on your courses too.

I know you Scottish folk are tight but down here we give our ducks fresh bread. They go quackers for it.

Offline kurnal

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2008, 02:20:15 PM »
Yes FSO  I can relate to similar incidents - but conversely I can remember a number of near misses where the smoke alarms failed to operate due to the wrong type of smoke (eg the sort of smoke you get from a smouldering fire in a washing machine where ionising detectors were installed).

Important to remember though that invariably we are are only talking of detection provided for the purpose of protecting the escape routes and in these enviroments  smoke detectors in the bedroom are unusual.

The document to which Wee Brian pointed us earlier gave the clear view that on a cost benefit approach extending smoke detectors to rooms in domestic property through Building Regulations is not a winner.
But as both you and TW point out HMOs present a very different risk profile, and often house vulnerable people.

The vulnerability may be very different to that of a non ambulant person though. BS5839 identifies the need for  smoke detection in disabled rooms to ensure the earliest detection of fire and to maximise their opportunity to escape.  Is this relevant to other types of vulnerability - for example persons with a drug or alcohol habit living in a doss house where there is probably nobody to help them if the smoke detector operates whilst they are out of their head?

I dont know if the Lacors committee  researched these issues before they produced their guidance. I see both sides of the argument and that persons in their own home should be allowed to be the masters of their own destiny.

On the other hand though  I remain interested to find and read any research into peoples reactions to fire whilst asleep- whether for the average fire in a bedroom they are likely to be woken as a result of exposure to the effects of the fire - inhalation of smoke and fumes.elevated temperature, noise any quicker or more slowly than a typical smoke detector.  

If anybody has a copy of  Pezolt,VJ & Van Cott,HP, “Arousal from sleep by emergency alarms: implications from the scientific literature”, NIST report NBSIR 78-1484 (HEW), 1978 please share the findings of this with me.

Offline Username

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2008, 03:12:58 PM »

Offline FSO

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2008, 04:05:43 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
At the end of the day a resident in a HMO has control over his / her individual room / bedsit.
Not in my example im afraid MR.

On this occasion it was the landlords equipment that caused the fire.

How could that be different in a hotel? Even PAT tested equipment goes pop sometimes.

I really do feel, regardless of any stats or research, that there should be SD within hotel rooms. That may be interlinked into the part 1 system or stand alone to run alongside a HD. Whatever way people wish to achieve it.

The same with HMOs, I fully understand that we are only looking for protecting means of escape and our level of enforcement stops there.

However, with the other head on......If you (as a landlord) have any form of equipment (even light fittings) within a dwelling, I would seriously recommend SD within the rooms. ALARP>>> I think it is reasonable.

Of course the housing officer can insist on this.

Again just my opinion, but hey ho its friday afternoon.

Midland Retty

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2008, 04:38:56 PM »
Hi FSO

This is where risk assessment comes into play. Should we be looking for standalone detectors in all HMOs or Hotels? or just in some where it would benefit less abled residents or to address specific risks.

Good management and adequate maintenance I dare say may have prevented the fire you attended the other day, and this opens the debate to where and when you should consider AFD and the provision other fire precautions to lower risk.

I would suggest providing AFD purely on the basis that a light fitting may cause a problem is onerous, and instead ensuring all relevant electrical checks are carried out periodically undertaken in line with current regulations would be a better way forward, and would ensure the likelyhood of any problems occuring with such devices are greatly reduced.

But as you say it is a friday afternoon....

Offline kurnal

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2008, 07:06:26 PM »
Quote from: Username
Good old google!

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire78/PDF/f78005.pdf
Thanks username. Why didnt it work for me? Is my pc just running google and yours is running gooooooooooooooooooooooooooogle? Or is it another case of less is more in the search engines. Thanks very much.

Sadly the report does not give us much help in terms of the likelihood  that a person may autmatically wake up as a consequence of a fire in their room. Still theres a long list of references to check out.

Offline colin todd

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2008, 08:12:22 PM »
Mr Retty, No need to apologise, though its very big of you to do so. You merely misread a post, and you could not claim any lewd act with my grand-daughter, cos i am not old enough to have one (but be careful what you say about Kurnal's great great grand-daughter).

You will find that the implication 0f BS 5839-6 is that HMO protection has 3 potential components: 1. Protection of the means of escape for those beyond the room of fire origin.  Compulsory and critical. 2. Protection of a family in their own unit of accommodation, if it comprises more than one room. Essential.  3. Protection of an individual in the room of fire origin. Not a pre-requisite under Part 6, but sometimes appropriate and sometimes not. Thats what risk assessment is about. Look at it this way- if you are looking at a up market HMO for single professional people who commute to the city from guildford (as I have done--Dear FSO, I have probably seen more HMOs than Messey's chums have chewed pieces of gum, both acting on behalf of clients and on behalf of enforcing authorities), i am not too bothered about the risk of them dying from a fire in their own bedroom. On the other hand, if i looked at a run down HMO with mum and kids in a single room, in which she has a wee grill, I would be interested in a stand alone device.

When Part 6 was published in 1995, which i do appreciate was long before a lot of those engaged in this debate were involved with fire safety, enforcing authorities in a well known capital city, though not that of Scotland or NI, were highly critical of the concept of protection in the room of origin being based on risk assessment, as they advised me---being from a city where the enforcing authorities are into equality and diversity-- that (and I quote) those living in an HMO are always at the bottom end of society (who would believe that Guildford is only 33 minutes in the train from London?).

Mr Sutton, all the implications of the research were explained clearly to the world in the 1980s (so my mother tells me) and there is reference to them in BS 5839-1. The findings are also explained in more detail in the latest version of my book on BS 5839-1 (available to Buzzard at half price plus a double bushmills next week- watch this space to see if he puts his hand in his pcoket).

Mr Retty, The Board of the f&rs will be meeting next week to discuss you offensive suggestion that Scottish people are tight. Expect to be suspended without pay until next easter. I once did a course , sorry learning experience, for the Messeys, and told them scottish people are mean, before i realised that the course was being observed by the odd fire safety officer and 5 million equality and diversity people who told me i cant say scottish people are mean. They never did explain to me however why we always let other people go into the pub first. Anyhow, the reason you dont give stale bread to ducks in the midlands is to use it as missiles against the other motorists you insist on carving up and being selfish to in your wee urban motorways.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Tom Sutton

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2008, 08:40:07 PM »
So you have written a book on BS 5839-1 you are full of surprises. ;)
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2008, 08:43:38 PM »
No I have written 3 books on bs 5839-1. The new one is the 3rd edition.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2008, 08:57:42 PM »
Hey Colin its not a bad little earner is it.  Now what conclusion should we draw from the fact that you had a hand in writing the BS and now you have added to your fortune by writing a third volume of "what we should have said".:)

Its a good job you weren't involved in writing the Bible. That has lasted several thousand years and has only had one major update in the form of the Authorised Version. (well alright I know!)

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2008, 09:03:46 PM »
Its actually not a great earner. The conclusion you should draw is that a BS is not a text book, and there is a need for a text book. Think of it as a labour of love, to educate people, rather than train them to follow things blindly. Is this a novel concept for you.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2008, 09:41:10 PM »
No I am trying to pickup a few tips thats all. I find myself so often in hot water with Mrs K for my clumsy and insensitive choice of words (or perhaps telling the truth).

The concept of having a second chance to explain myself and to win favour for doing so seemed  a very attractive prospect.  Something like "No I meant to say that dress emphasises your slim posterior perfectly my dear and could you pass me another can of stella whilst you are up"

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2008, 10:10:16 PM »
Kurnal. I am, of course, only to pleased to assist you in your would be writing career, though I would have to caution that there is not a huge market for titles such as "My memories of the Empire Palace Theatre fire in 1911".  In any case, the circumstances of that fire (the correct ones, not those purveyed during your training all those decades ago at a well known English centre of somethingness) are outlined in my other recent new book, A Comprehensive Guide To Fire Safety, also published by BSI and also not a great earner, since, although it sells well, you will find in your new writing career that royalties in the publishing world are very low. Let me know when I can buy your first edition, so that I can leave it as a legacy to my children to flog on ebay once you are famous.
As you pointed out, so flatteringly, I myself have shed pounds from my posterior, so if Mrs Kurnal wants tips, I can give her some at the same time as I tutour you in your writing skills, since, as a man, I can multi task.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2008, 10:23:46 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
I would have to caution that there is not a huge market for titles such as "My memories of the Empire Palace Theatre fire in 1911".
On the contrary Colin  I am already on the third edition of that one. Though to be fair that may have more to do with the Subtitle  "A further account of a hot and steamy night".

messy

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Lacors, please explain
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2008, 09:12:17 AM »
Quote from: colin todd
I once did a course , sorry learning experience, for the Messeys, and told them scottish people are mean, before i realised that the course was being observed by the odd fire safety officer and 5 million equality and diversity people who told me i cant say scottish people are mean. They never did explain to me however why we always let other people go into the pub first.
It's true to say that our Equality & Diversity Dept -aka 'Social Engineering Dept' - is far bigger (and holds more importance) than our Fire Safety Engineering Dept - which perhaps does speak volumes about LFB's approach to providing the fire service for this great city.

Don't get me wrong, I reckon everyone should work/live in a fair society, free from bullying and all things nasty. But they way some of our managers 'manage' this area is beyond belief. I wish I could give examples of some of the over-the-top methods, but I wouldn't want to be mean!!

By the way, I am not sure that the plural of Messy would be Messeys. (But then I was educated in England so what do I know!!!)