Curious

[colin todd]

It doest say not accpetable. Just gives braoad implication. BS 7273-4 Annex A

[Mushy]

"Category B are not regarded as suitable for all applications, such as staircases in sleeping risks."



sorry Colin as you said Dorguard was Category B your above post threw me a bit...I'll check the broad implications out

[kurnal]

Mushy it is down to the responsible Persons assessment of risk. The BS gives some benchmark guidance. All it is saying is that some methods of holding open a fire door are more reliable, more resilient  and give a faster response than other methods. Some buildings and situations are higher risk than others. If you had a four storey hotel with a single staircase and a kitchen door opening into the bottom of the staircase you need to be very careful about what you do with that kitchen door. Especially as there is only likely to be a heat detector in the kitchen so no device- whether it is a swing free closer or magnet is likely to be any better in that situation.

On the other hand in a different building say of less height or with additional staircases you may be a bit more relaxed about it.  The dorgard is a good bit of kit but it isnt  as resilient or durable as a swing free closer or a magnet. But it can be more flexible ( it can be programmed not to hold the door open at night so has an element of failsafe there), is a lot cheaper and needs no wires. So using a dorgard my fall outside the broad guidance of the BS but may actually result in a fire safety solution that reduces the level of fire risk as low as is reasonably practicable.

Hope this drivel helps.

[Mushy]

Thanks for taking the time to answer Kurnal it's appreciated

I've just dug a CACFOA paper written on March 2003 (google is good!) which says similar to what has been stated on here ie Dorguard should not 'normally' be used for single staircases and other critical means of escape...surprisingly it does not mention sleeping risk.

My hotel manager friend has this device on an accommodation stair leading to bedrooms...the corridor has another means of escape but you have to bypass this door to get to it so in effect there is only one means of escape stair (which is an external) so I'm thinking it shouldn't be on there

anyway thanks all for your patience



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_016.pdf

[kurnal]

Mushy that document is just the University of London's own internal policy on these things. Thats probably why they dont mention sleeping risks.

I have recommended dorgards in several hotels having considered the pros and cons and the circumstances of the case.  I cant comment on your friends situation without seeing it other than to say if they have smoke detection at the bottom of the stairs, if the nature of the building is such that smoke will not cut off the means of escape in the incipient stages of the fire before the alarm has operated and the doors closed, if the dorgard is set to shut the door at night when people are asleep it could be ok and better than a magnet or swing free that may well be open 24/7

[bungle]

Just a thought on door releasing devices, consider the possibility of it releasing on timer switch and hitting someone, I seem to remember reading of an elderly person being killed in such a way.

[Mushy]

Mushy that document is just the University of London's own internal policy on these things. Thats probably why they dont mention sleeping risks.

I have recommended dorgards in several hotels having considered the pros and cons and the circumstances of the case.  I cant comment on your friends situation without seeing it other than to say if they have smoke detection at the bottom of the stairs, if the nature of the building is such that smoke will not cut off the means of escape in the incipient stages of the fire before the alarm has operated and the doors closed, if the dorgard is set to shut the door at night when people are asleep it could be ok and better than a magnet or swing free that may well be open 24/7

Hi Kurnal

If you scroll down on that link it gives CACFOA's general recommendations on dorgard and magnets. One problem I suppose is if the fire alarm fails for any reason, although as you say if the door is shut at night that wouldn't matter in relation to the device

[Tom W]

Just a thought on door releasing devices, consider the possibility of it releasing on timer switch and hitting someone, I seem to remember reading of an elderly person being killed in such a way.

It was actually a magnet. Dorguard is the only retainer to have a delay and an audible/visual warning before it closes.

At the end of the day they seem to work, its a simple bit of kit but it does the job. I would always have on night time release, if the batteries run out it closes itself so wheres the harm in using it? If the only argument is that what if the fire alarm/sounder fails well 1. it should have an alternative power supply. 2. Whats the chance of that actually happening? 3. If the power supply fails to a magnet it doesn't necessarily fail to safe (talk to a sparky you would be surprised).

[nearlythere]

Typical CACFOA vagueness. "Dorgards should not be used to protect single stairways or protecting other critical means of escape."
Are all means of escape not critical?

[Tom W]

Typical CACFOA vagueness. "Dorgards should not be used to protect single stairways or protecting other critical means of escape."
Are all means of escape not critical?

"Not Normally" !! even more help!

[Rex]

Mushy
Regarding your friends hotel and dorgard devices, there is a radio-interlinked fire door retainer on the market wire free that conforms to the highest  standard Cat A of BS 7273-4, available from the sponser of Firenet -Safelinks, Its up to the fire risk assessor to inform the responsible person of the safest solution for the premises, bearing in mind it's a sleeping risk. Probably in hindsight this should have been sorted when the L2 fire alarm system was  recently installed, although hindsight is a wonderful thing and very hard to obtain, If it's on sale anywhere please let me know..

[kurnal]

hindsight is a wonderful thing and very hard to obtain, If it's on sale anywhere please let me know..

Cant do hindsight but can offer you a good price for a little bit of forsight mixed with a pinch of sad reflection served at the bar with equal measures of cynicism and experience shaken but not stirred, whipped but never beaten.

Please form an orderly queue.

My Uncle also had forsight- he had a crystal ball and could see himself coming.

[colin todd]

The old CACFOA advice is now obsolete. It is possible to argue until the cows come home but the recognized national guidance is in BS 7273-4. Of course, its only a code of practice, and people can ignore it if they wish. A court may not be quite so dismissive of guidance produced as a national consensus of all stakeholders including regualtors and enforcers as well as the industry.

[nearlythere]

The old CACFOA advice is now obsolete. It is possible to argue until the cows come home but the recognized national guidance is in BS 7273-4. Of course, its only a code of practice, and people can ignore it if they wish. A court may not be quite so dismissive of guidance produced as a national consensus of all stakeholders including regualtors and enforcers as well as the industry.

Of course it isn't CACFOA any more. Assistant Chiefs have been kicked off the Association. It is now CFOA.

[kurnal]

Just a thought on door releasing devices, consider the possibility of it releasing on timer switch and hitting someone, I seem to remember reading of an elderly person being killed in such a way.

Bungle- would you not say that this unfortunate person was the victim of a maladjusted or inappropriate door closer rather than the electromagnetic door release?

We see it all the time- spring loaded saloon type hinges on double swing fire doors in care homes and hydraulics that are wrongly adjusted so they shake the place to pieces as they slam the door. Two minutes is all it takes to adjust them to close the door in a controlled but gentle manner.