Student Accomadation FRS say they don't want any fire extinguishers

[Thomas Brookes]

Our head office is in Lincoln and we maintain a lot of student accomadation from blocks with 200 beds to 4 bedroom houses.
Anyway I have had many tussels with Lincs Fire & Rescue Services the last one was to do with Fire Alarm maintenance they were saying only NIC electricians could maintain a fire alarm (and they told this to two hundred owners at a big meeting). Any way after myself and another company in Lincolnshire made formal complaints to the Chief Fire Officer in London, Lincs had to make a big clime down and address the mistakes made including telling all 200 people they were wrong.

Any how, at another meeting recently the local Fire Risk Manager (I think thats what they are called now) told all members that they did not want any of the student accomadation owners having any fire extinguishers in their building. The reason is because they do not want students fighting fires.

Now surely this goes against not only the RRO but also the HMO regs where both say that suitable fire fighting equipment must be provided.

I am going to once again write to the Lincs FRS for the reasons behind this but was wondering what everyones thoughts on this are.

[afterburner]

This is a new one twist, which I am unfamiliar with. The interesting side issue would be enforcement procedures as the same F&RS that are telling you no extinguishers in the student accommodation, would also be the Enforcing Authority for the applicable legislation. Are they saying they will never take enforcement procedures against reponsible persons for not providing extinguishers? And how will that gel with other common concepts such as 'duty of care', personal injury claim and all that side of things? How do your insurers regard this edict?

I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted because they provided and maintained extinguishers.

[kurnal]

Very good point Afterburner.  Ask for it to be confirmed in writing to safeguard members against any future enforcement action.

[Benzerari]

Our head office is in Lincoln and we maintain a lot of student accomadation from blocks with 200 beds to 4 bedroom houses.
Anyway I have had many tussels with Lincs Fire & Rescue Services the last one was to do with Fire Alarm maintenance they were saying only NIC electricians could maintain a fire alarm (and they told this to two hundred owners at a big meeting). Any way after myself and another company in Lincolnshire made formal complaints to the Chief Fire Officer in London, Lincs had to make a big clime down and address the mistakes made including telling all 200 people they were wrong.

Any how, at another meeting recently the local Fire Risk Manager (I think thats what they are called now) told all members that they did not want any of the student accomadation owners having any fire extinguishers in their building. The reason is because they do not want students fighting fires.

Now surely this goes against not only the RRO but also the HMO regs where both say that suitable fire fighting equipment must be provided.

I am going to once again write to the Lincs FRS for the reasons behind this but was wondering what everyones thoughts on this are.

We have more than ten students accommodations, none of them have fire extinguishers in the buildings?

I have never thought about why they are missing, up till now!

Good point!

[nearlythere]

Now surely this goes against not only the RRO but also the HMO regs where both say that suitable fire fighting equipment must be provided.

Hi Thomas. Are you sure it actually says that FAFFE must be provided ?
Typically, there are a lot of words in the legislation which clouds this issue. Article 13 of The RRO starts with "Where necessary.........................". 13(a) also includes the words ".....to the extent that it is appropriate......" Is a relevant circumstance in 13(1) the fact that students, in the event of a fire, are instructed to evacuate the premises and stay out? 13(3) starts with "The Responsible person must, where necessary ......"
Students are not employees and as such should not be trained in their use. Realistically how many actually are? None I would reckon.

[colin160174]

It depends on how the student accommodation is occupied. If they are occupied as flats, I would agree that there is no legal requirement for fire extinguishers, because the premises are domestic. Just because the tenants are students it does not take away the fact that the premises are domestic.

[Thomas Brookes]

We are talking shared houses, everyone has their  own bedroom and share everything else.
But surely the issue is here, it is all down to every one having or doing their own risk assessment and then making a decision on what is needed.
These officers are standing in front of a large group of property owners and making a one fits all statement "we do not want any fire extinguishers in student accomadation".

If they went the other way Ie "you have all got to have sprinklers, L1 fire alarm linked to red care, fire extinguishers in every room, fire escapes out of every bedroom etc, there would be an uproar".

I can apriciate some of the buildings may not need any equipment, but to tell all, that student accomadation should not have any is (i feel) very dangerous indeed.

[Goodsparks]

Be intresting to her the logic behind the 'student' part. Maybe, students being educated people the FRS deem them to be less likely to start a fire ? :-)

Seems to be a rather sweeping generalisation about competence / common sense, wonder if there are any fire engineering students in Lincoln ?

Paul

[jokar]

look at you tube to see what many students do with extinguishers.  Thomas, I agree, the FRA should decide where necessary what is required, not a blanket statement from an FRS.

[Benzerari]

They are multiple occupancies buildings MOB, are they? Why should we consider them as private or dwellings?

[CivvyFSO]

Be intresting to her the logic behind the 'student' part. Maybe, students being educated people the FRS deem them to be less likely to start a fire ? :-)

Seems to be a rather sweeping generalisation about competence / common sense, wonder if there are any fire engineering students in Lincoln ?

Paul

There is no Fire Engineering Degree available in Lincoln. Even if there was, does that mean they would necessarily know how to use a fire extinguisher, or can be guaranteed to have any level of common sense?

[colin160174]

They are multiple occupancies buildings MOB, are they? Why should we consider them as private or dwellings?

If you have a flat with bedrooms and shared living kitchen facilities, it should be treated as a dwelling. I could build a block of apartments and let them out to students in the same situation, and they would still be apartments. Why should we class apartments as anything else just because a student lives within them, do they now warrant fire extinguishers.

Do we treat apartments with OAPs differently because of their limitations?

I agree that a sweeping statement is a dangerous move because each building needs to be assessed on its individual circumstances.

Many of the official student accommodation is constructed as apartments with added control/management, that would not be present in privately let accommodation, yet people seem to think they should be classed as a separate occupancy, why?

[colin160174]

They are multiple occupancies buildings MOB, are they? Why should we consider them as private or dwellings?

If you have a flat with bedrooms and shared living kitchen facilities, it should be treated as a dwelling. I could build a block of apartments and let them out to students in the same situation, and they would still be apartments. Why should we class apartments as anything else just because a student lives within them, do they now warrant fire extinguishers.

Do we treat apartments with OAPs differently because of their limitations?

I agree that a sweeping statement is a dangerous move because each building needs to be assessed on its individual circumstances.

Many of the official student accommodation is constructed as apartments with added control/management, that would not be present in privately let accommodation, yet people seem to think they should be classed as a separate occupancy, why?

[Benzerari]

Posting the same post twice becomes a problem for many members now... etc I think some thing goes wrong but I don't know what is't?

[CivvyFSO]

It can often be a delay when you click "post", the more impatient among us might click post again rather than wait to see if it has worked.

(Similar to when people click on a link on the internet, and if it doesn't work straight away they click it a few times and end up with 4 instances of Internet Explorer running for 1 page.)