Belongings / rubbish in communal areas in flats in social housing

[JC100]

Has anyone dealt with belongings / rubbish in communal areas in flats in social housing? As i'm sure you're aware it is one of the many problems that social housing landlords have to deal with.

The problems seen regularly are people literally extending their living space with cupboards etc in hallway or from bikes, buggies, rugs / pieces of carpet, clothing drying over balustrades and general rubbish. Did sending letter asking them to remove it work or did it get nowhere (which is what i'm expecting in some porperties). How did you take this further or what are your thoughts on this matter? We are very aware that removing it ourselves could leave us open to complaints of theft although equally aware that by not removing it leaves us open to enforcment/prosecution.

[xan]

I think that needs to be enforced by the L.A. Housing Officer under the Housing Act.It is a common escape route,so needs to be kept clear.

[JC100]

We have got the housing officers looking into this. They are under the impression though that the possibility of getting accused of theft is much higher than the possibility of anything becoming involved in a fire / blocking someones escape and so are wary of being forcefull. Any suggestions? This is occuring in blocks that operate 'stay put' policies and under the RR(FS)O escape routes should be kept clear at all times.

[xan]

I think the Housing Officers are getting poor advice,but I am no expert in their powers.I think worrying about a threat of 'theft' is a poor reason for doing nothing.It doesn't stop the council removing an illegally parked car.

[xan]

This document may be of help.quote below appears to extend the powers of the housing officer to the common areas of flats.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pdf/safetyratingsystem.pdf

Consultation with fire and rescue authorities
6.12 The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (SI 2005 No. 1541) will rationalise
existing fire safety legislation, including the Fire Precautions Act 1971, and bring it into
one regime. Guidance will be issued under the Order.
6.13 Section 10 of the Act requires local housing authorities to consult the local fire and
rescue authority before taking enforcement action in respect of a prescribed fire hazard
in an HMO or in the common parts of a building containing flats. The form of the
consultation is not prescribed. Where emergency measures are to be taken in relation to
a prescribed fire hazard the housing authority must consult the fire and rescue authority
before taking those measures as far as is practicable.

[Martin]

We have put signs up saying any items will be removed, on fire safety grounds, without warning and we do on occasion remove. If it's valuable we keep it safe for a while to see if anyone claims it. However try telling  a mother who has to take toddler up two flights of stairs that she can't lock her pram up under the stairs on the ground floor, or the driver of a powered wheel chair the wheelchair has to go in the flat. We are considering putting in a buggy store etc adjacent to bin stores. Cost? Will people use them? Security? This may be waste of money if we still can't ensure stairs are sterile.

In practice caretakers turn a blind eye to careful storage of low fire burden stuff as they see it such as bikes, prams etc. I don't think they use the phrase fire burden more like"that won't burn easy". I know the plastic in a pram will create a lot of smoke but they argue there is no ignition source.

This is not from a lack of senior management willing. Every so often we have a purge on particularly bad example. We have also had a big go at the publishers/distributors of free papers about not dumping umpteen copies at the bottom of each stair well.

If anyone has got a good way of keeping these areas clear without the tenants rising up in arms please let me know.

[JC100]

Martin

Are the fire brigade happy with your solution to this problem? Bikes and buggies with no ignition source near by might not pose a fire hazard, how will they affect fire fighters operations though, will the hose get caught around the bikes wheel (thats chained to the balustrade), or the shoe rack outside the flat door and cause them to waste time by working around it? A lot of our blocks aren't secured, arson could become an issue.
It sometimes feels that whatever idea we come up with will fail and the majority of people will be annoyed by it.

The housing officers are looking into the possibility of us removing things, but the problem we have is that we have no where at present to store these things if we can remove them.

Xan

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, we are an RSL not the local authority so i dont think it applies in enforcement terms. Further reading is needed!

[Martin]

Fire Brigade are quite clear they want these areas clear. On a pragmatic level they are not going to chase after doormats and a few plants but we did have a fire involving a pram (probably a malicious prank) being set alight by EXPLETIVE DELETED using free papers to get it started. The result was fair amount of smoke and tenants opening doors to see what was happening. Tenants did stay in and FB extinguished. No formal action by FB in follow up meeting but they did point out our assessment included keeping areas clear and we had signs up to this effect. They expected us to get on with it.

In practical terms we aren't bad in that most staircases corridors etc are  clear most of the time and we certainly don't have flammable rubbish lying about. It is a bit of a Forth Road Bridge job though. As an aside the FB were happy that improved security/entry into common areas was helping prevent malicious fire raising. A few of our blocks did have problems with drug users and prostitutes doing business in common areas. Housing officers, police. community safety officers, tenants groups and  better security have mostly stopped this. For the PC and users of buzz words "multi-agency joint working with stake holder involvement" at its best.

[Ashley Wood]

The biggest risk in these situations is from Arson. There have been several fires this year where toe rags set fire to other peoples items left on landings. I would write to every person in the block advising them of the need to keep these areas clear and state the reasons. Give them 21 days notice then have the items removed.

[Izan FSO]

... No formal action by FB in follow up meeting but they did point out our assessment included keeping areas clear and we had signs up to this effect. They expected us to get on with it.

So you have a fire risk assessment in place and your significant findings identify the need to keep common areas clear you have even put up signs.... but you dont enforce your own policies and procedures and you dont action the findings of your risk assessment.....Is the RRO Working? obviously not

[Martin]

Izan,

It's not quite as black and white as you paint it. We do remove rubbish bags in corridors staircases etc. and if we identify tenants take action. We do take action with discarded heaps of free newspapers. Every so often we pick an area we know has lots of bikes and prams and warn tenants we wil be clearing the whole lot and then act. For a time it is alright apart from the ill-feeling to th ethe caretakers and "housing dept." Then things creep back

In terms of RA some findings are more significant than others. It is bad practice to have Prams and Bikes in common areas even if they are carefully placed under the stairs out of the way. We take steps to enforce this. We do not achieve 100%.

[JC100]

The biggest risk in these situations is from Arson. There have been several fires this year where toe rags set fire to other peoples items left on landings. I would write to every person in the block advising them of the need to keep these areas clear and state the reasons. Give them 21 days notice then have the items removed.

Completely agree with you. Do you know if the 21 day notice works when put in practice though? I think it would work maybe a couple of times, but then word would get around and I have a feeling that the resident will remove items on the 20th day, wait for the 21st day to pass and then replace them again on the 22nd.  Maybe i'm just being pesimistic, who knows....

[nearlythere]

The biggest risk in these situations is from Arson. There have been several fires this year where toe rags set fire to other peoples items left on landings. I would write to every person in the block advising them of the need to keep these areas clear and state the reasons. Give them 21 days notice then have the items removed.

Maybe i'm just being pesimistic, who knows....

No. Realistic I would think. Would a presecution or two be the right approach?

[Tom Sutton]

nearlythere

Under what legislation would you prosecute and who would you prosecute.

[nearlythere]

nearlythere

Under what legislation would you prosecute and who would you prosecute.

What about Article 32 of the RRO.
Responsible person and any other person mentioned in article 5(3)
Could it not be argued that a tenant has control of those premises so far as the requirements relate to matters within his control. Does a tenant have a degree of control over the common areas? The tenant can control what he or she does in it.
Thats just off the top of my head.
Maybe the legal eagles in the forum could comment.