What would you do in case of...?

[Benzerari]

Imagine bank holidays with week ends, in total four to five days off, if Christmas time is more than four to five days off, if the first night you get called out for some system turned down, the main PCB board failed, and new panel is found to be the only option!

How can you manage to protect the building, for that couple of days off?

[Galeon]

Get your client to place fire warden patrols in the building , until the panel has been replaced , you have no other option as the client might want to tender the price for replacement.
Its not your problem .

[Wiz]

Galeon's answer is spot on when nothing else can be done.

When I had a service company serving hundreds of properties, we would keep spare panels available for emergencies. These panels could be adapted to suit 90% of the systems we looked after in one way or the other. It was rare that we couldn't get something working on the same day. Obviously the customer paid for whatever costs we incurred in keeping their system up and running and were happy to pay it.

Providing such a service makes your company better than most others and will win you more work in the long run

[Thomas Brookes]

Assuming the owner of the alarm wanted it, we would replace it if we can.

We keep as standard 6 x 4 zones and 1 x 8 zone in stock. plus every van has a 4 zone on it as standard stock.
With these we can sort at least 90% of our customers there and then. If it was one of the panels we don't stock we would attempt a  fix, worst case senario we would do a temp fix with battery detectors and ensuring the customer is aware and more proactive on checking the building.
I would just have
 to be sure the owners got a big cheque book though.

[Benzerari]

Get your client to place fire warden patrols in the building , until the panel has been replaced , you have no other option as the client might want to tender the price for replacement.
Its not your problem .

Good option Gal.

[Benzerari]

Tom. and Wiz;

Good option too; to have spare panels in the cars or vans..., imagine proposed that one day to some manager he refused the idea just because of the cost... etc

Strange isn't?

[Graeme]

what if an a/a panel went down?

[Thomas Brookes]

Tom. and Wiz;

Good option too; to have spare panels in the cars or vans..., imagine proposed that one day to some manager he refused the idea just because of the cost... etc

Strange isn't?

Benzerari, it depends on how much work the company does, we fit at least 10-15 new panels a month so we buy them in at about 5 to 10 at a time (better price that way)

I always think, if you have not got the stock your engineers can not sell it

[Benzerari]

what if an a/a panel went down?

Well; at least the internal PCBs have to be in the stock not necessary the whole enclosure... etc, also the necessary loop cards compatible to different protocols… etc

[Benzerari]

Tom. and Wiz;

Good option too; to have spare panels in the cars or vans..., imagine proposed that one day to some manager he refused the idea just because of the cost... etc

Strange isn't?

Benzerari, it depends on how much work the company does, we fit at least 10-15 new panels a month so we buy them in at about 5 to 10 at a time (better price that way)

I always think, if you have not got the stock your engineers can not sell it

Indeed, but fitting 10 to 15 new panels a month, it seems you are fully busy mate!

[Benzerari]

This is one of what I used to use guys, if there is no choice, see the circuit below



If many zone detection circuits to be used, one relay is required for each zone, also the relay should be of min triggering voltage of 9-10Vdc and an internal coil's resistor of about 400-500Ω... etc

The sounder circuits can be fitted all together in the same output terminals... etc

The EOL = 4K7Ω is for some purposes if your system uses  a different value of EOL you need the chose the same value of the resistor in parallel with the coil, this is to avoid to trigger the relay in quiescent condition... etc

The circuit has been practically tested with both smoke detectors and manual call points and it works perfectly, but only fire condition is monitored.

You can add, Silence and Reset buttons as well as Evac. buttons, in addition to a fire LED in serial with quite big resistor... etc

I don't take any responsibility for any misuse, the last time I retest it OK, was with my colleague Paul (sirparkingson)


Thank you

[Thomas Brookes]

If I understand what your saying, you would make up the above convensional  circuit and run the system on it till a proper repair is availible?.

If so there are a few issues that would worry me. Obviously it has not got any manufactures approvals such as CE marks, Kitemarks etc, so god forbit something goes wrong, and this could be someone messing with it etc, you are on your own.
I was also under the impression that everything sold these days should have a CE mark on it (i might be wrong).


And my last issue is, by time you have bought all the bits and the box to put them in and spent time making it up you could have bought a 4 zone convensional panel for £95.

So for me although yes I think it would work it would not be an option.

[Benzerari]

If I understand what your saying, you would make up the above convensional  circuit and run the system on it till a proper repair is availible?.

If so there are a few issues that would worry me. Obviously it has not got any manufactures approvals such as CE marks, Kitemarks etc, so god forbit something goes wrong, and this could be someone messing with it etc, you are on your own.

I was also under the impression that everything sold these days should have a CE mark on it (i might be wrong).

And my last issue is, by time you have bought all the bits and the box to put them in and spent time making it up you could have bought a 4 zone convensional panel for £95.

So for me although yes I think it would work it would not be an option.

this is my circuit mate, and it's one of what I used to use where there were no options..., it isn't some one else manufacturer..., I wouldn't care about CE marking for that couple of days OFF...

But if spare panels are available that must be the best choice

[kurnal]

Benz
You clearly will bend over backwards to help a customer resolve a major problem.
By being helpful and inventive you have improved the situation but you have taken the burden of responsibility off the shoulders of the employer and taken it all on yourself.

I salute you- but please be aware of the possible outcome. You have come up with a practical design that will be far from perfect but should do the job ok. If it does work or if there is no fire- great.

If it doesnt work and someone gets hurt or if the building burns down either the coronors court or the civil court will have the benefit of hindsight and will make a judgement over whether your design was good enough. You will have some clever barrister paid thousands of pounds just to win the case for the insurance sompany and whose fee will depend solely on whether he can make you look an idiot in the court, so he will try hard to destroy you.

But if you are easy with that concept then go on and carry on your good work. Just make sure you are absolutely clear that it is a very temorary fix for day or two to overcome a crisis.

 Its very similar to  Dynamic risk assessment carried out by the operational fire service- it can be ok to take a little risk if the potential benefit of doing so is big enough. They usually make the right decision but sometimes it goes wrong and then the hindsight of the enquiry can weigh very heavily on the poor chap at the sharp end.


But in the circumstances I am with you. Other solutions you could have adopted- interlinked smoke alarms have been used in some circumstances for a life risk. The radio linked  detectors lend themselves to this although obviously only designed for domestic situations.

[Benzerari]

Benz
You clearly will bend over backwards to help a customer resolve a major problem.
By being helpful and inventive you have improved the situation but you have taken the burden of responsibility off the shoulders of the employer and taken it all on yourself.

I salute you- but please be aware of the possible outcome. You have come up with a practical design that will be far from perfect but should do the job ok. If it does work or if there is no fire- great.

If it doesnt work and someone gets hurt or if the building burns down either the coronors court or the civil court will have the benefit of hindsight and will make a judgement over whether your design was good enough. You will have some clever barrister paid thousands of pounds just to win the case for the insurance sompany and whose fee will depend solely on whether he can make you look an idiot in the court, so he will try hard to destroy you.

But if you are easy with that concept then go on and carry on your good work. Just make sure you are absolutely clear that it is a very temorary fix for day or two to overcome a crisis.

 Its very similar to  Dynamic risk assessment carried out by the operational fire service- it can be ok to take a little risk if the potential benefit of doing so is big enough. They usually make the right decision but sometimes it goes wrong and then the hindsight of the enquiry can weigh very heavily on the poor chap at the sharp end.


But in the circumstances I am with you. Other solutions you could have adopted- interlinked smoke alarms have been used in some circumstances for a life risk. The radio linked  detectors lend themselves to this although obviously only designed for domestic situations.

Thanks Kurnal for this advise;

It's indeed for temporary measures only, while waiting to get spares in the next working days..., this is quite similar to closed protocol systems some times, where the loop card fail during a couple of bank holidays and week ends... etc, the loop card usually covers couple of floors or so..., what would be the solution then, there is no magic ways... ?

We had been in similar situation say with Zetler, Securiton, Minerva 80, PSS... etc where the manufacturers either they don't make that spare parts any more, or only their own engineer that can deal with the problem... etc, and in that case patrolling the site 24h may be the only option.