Intumescent strips.

[kurnal]

Hi Aunty
No doubt seals are a good idea- but I think the crux of the argument is whether  retro fitting seals to an old doorset (which remains in good condition with 25mm rebates and a a good fit) can be realistically enforced?
Some brigades are seeking to enforce this - on the grounds of adapting to technical progress- whilst others will continue to accept old doorsets without seals so long as they remain in good condition.

Do you have an opinion on this?

[colin todd]

Linnypops, I know you are a blonde bombshell, but you fool people with the white rinse you use. The 459 was a slip of the pen-I didnt mean part 3 either I meant 476-1. I will knock some nosh up for you on Sunday. Hope you like it. And BE ON TIME THIS TIME!!!!!

[jokar]

Auntie Lin,

I haven't been called chum since school days, but perhaps you missed a p.

Can you please with your acknowledged wisdom and expertise answer some questions for us learners.

1. Are existing doors that offer close fitting plus all the other proper bits with 25 mm rebates glued and screwed acceptable for existing buidlings?  By that I mean the doors are the originals.

2. If they are not, are we to ask, suggest, recommend that the door set is to be replaced by a new set to the latets test standard?. ( I do not want to be called chum again by quoting something you know is incorrect)

3. Are enforcers RAers and others correct then, to suggest the retrofitting of S&S to existing doors by pinning them on or routing out the door or frame?  (Surely this would be against the original test certification)

I and perhaps many others awit your answers with anticipation as it is now a fundamental question raised. 

[colin todd]

Jokar,

But, with all due respect to my auntie lin, that is a question for you to answer, as its your risk assessment. Auntie Lin can tell you how the door will perform, but someone needs to use judgement and not just rely on a rule they got from someone down the pub.

There is a video on the web with an old chum , alan cox, for whom I have a lot of respect, and a blonde bit of stuff showing how awful it is that doors arent always fitted with intumescent strips. Alan and the bit of stuff stand there with this bleeding great 476 furnace in front of them, with roaring flames, and then they act liked raped virgins when the door with no strips first fails at 15 minutes. And then they tell people how awful that early failure is cos fire doors MUST do 30 minutes. And I am thinking, they are right-you dont want people making a video right next to a room with a post flashover fire for 15 minutes.  There ought to be a law against it.  So, if, Jokar, you happen across premises, where AFTER FLASHOVER an ex fire officer and a blonde bit of stuff are likely to stand right next to a door for a quarter of an hour after a fire beyond the door has developed to flashover, be afraid; be very afraid.

[Auntie LIn]

Hi Kurnal - my view on this is that "good condition" and "good fit" vary widely from one area to another.   For some brigades it will mean a door and frame that is undamaged with a full complement of hardware with gaps not exceeding 6mm.   For others, the door and/or frame can have some damage and as long as the leaf doesn't actually swing through the frame it's deemed to be a good fit (and that's why I don't believe in 25mm deep doorstops!).   When I'm out looking at doors I will often suggest that combined seals will keep people and property safest.   When they start whingeing about costs I remind them that a smoke seal is a pretty good draught seal - so they can look at not wasting so much heat - and while you're fitting a draught seal, just use one that's got intumescent with it.

Toddy - I've rearranged the whole of my weekend just so I can enjoy the pleasure of your company!

Jokar - if you're happy to accept doors without seals and prepared to put your name on the paper, then that's fine.   I'm not - I'm a belt and braces woman.   Whether the doors are acceptable or not will depend on how they've been built.  It's really all down to condition and fit.   You need to look at what potentially has been done to the door since it was fitted.   Lots of people change locks and latches, put letterplates in, cut glass apertures etc. all without benefit of advice or approval.   Hardware often is totally inadequate - as you will know you really need 3 hinges for a fire door.

If you want a checklist of things that perhaps you should think about when checking doors for a FRA, send me your address and I'll send you a simple guide (simple so that you can pass it on to customers - no implications that it's for a simple soul (and I promise not to call you chum again!)) which ASDMA produced to try and help people.

For retro-fitting there are a number of options available.   Yes, you can ask for them to be routed in, but it's a pain and I've just been to check on a job where the router was blunt and I think I could have made a better job with Colin's false teeth.   There are also ranges of fire seals which are self-adhesive - but as a belt ad braces woman I'd still want these pinned on!

[Tom Sutton]

Auntie LIn

Is the checklist on the ASDMA website or is it only a hard copy you have?

[jokar]

But I am a simple soul, I am just collecting information and as you and Colin know, knowledge is power.  Thank you for answering my questions.

[Davo]

Tw

Lots of free stuff on these websites

ASDMA
DHF  door and hardware federation
BWF  british woodworking federation
IFSA intumescent fire seals association


or e mail me

davo

[Tom Sutton]

Davo I have raided them all but I have never come across a checklist or guidance which would help when checking doors for a FRA most guidance stays clear of this subject.

[colin todd]

Lin. Belt and braces? BELT AND BRACES?? I always thought you were wearing stockings and suspenders. I promised the boys at Gullane that you were doing so. Now you tell me that it was belt and braces. What sort of erotic pleasure is anyone meant to get from belt and braces for goodness sake. Please ensure you wear better attire on Sunday, or I will not talk to you. I might as well talk to Dave instead, as I know he wears a belt and braces already.

[Auntie LIn]

Hello men (seeing as I'm not allowed to call you chums!)
At risk of being flooded with e-mails - ASDMA has produced a small leaflet RR(FS)O 2005 ASDMA Guidance Notes for Responsible Persons - which will probably be too simple for you, but could be useful for you to hand on to the people you're doing FRAs for.   Unfortunately it's currently only available in hard copy, but it is free, and if you send me an address and whether you just want one copy or multiple I'll deal with them when I've recovered from my post Christmas/New Year hangover!

[Auntie LIn]

Oh, and a PS to Colin - if I'd known you'd told Gullane I was a stockings and suspenders woman I would most certainly have worn them.   And don't tell me that you don't know that the belt I referred to was a suspender belt???  The braces were to cover bits usually covered by a bra - now doesn't that frighten the horses??