Fire safety enforcement in england

[colin todd]

Civvy, I agree with Tam that your scurrilous allegations have serious legal ramifications.

If they use my excellent course notes to wedge open fire doors that form part of the general fire precautions required to support the objective of Article 8 of the FSO, or part of the fire safety measures required to support Sections 53 or 54 of the Fire (Scotland) Act, or part of the general fire precautions required under Part II of the Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations (NI) 2001, then it might be possible that there has been a contravention of Article 14(2)(b) of the FSO, or Regulation 13(2)(b) of the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations or Regulation 5(2)(b) of the FP(W)R (NI). If such a contravention placed one or more relevant persons in Great Britain at risk of death or serious injury on the event of fire, or an employee at risk of death or serious injury in the event of fire in NI, then an offence might have been committed under Article 32(1)(a) of the FSO, or under Section 72(1) of the F(S) Act, or under Section 11 of the FP(W)R (NI).

I do not think on the balance of probabilities it would be grossly disproportionate in  relation to the reduction in risk to remove my excellent notes  from the bottom of the door and read them thoroughly. Accordingly there might be no defence available. In fact, I think that failing to read the notes should be some sort of crime.

I think you should put up or shut up and tell us the addresses of the premises in question. Then, according to where this terrible thing has happened,  in one capital city, stormtroopers can be sent in, leaving a trail of chewing gum on the carpets. In another, someone will be sent round to talk about rugby (a boring game, discussion of which will be sufficient punishment to act as a future deterrent). In another, a caution will be issued along the lines, " see yon notes, Jimmy, git them oot oh yon door right noo, tak them ootwith the building and git reading them". In a further capital, there will be a chat over two pints of Guinness, and a couple of bushmills, followed by the friendly advice " get wise to yourself seamus, go on ahead and take toddys notes out of that door and read them" (the sanction of severe arthritis of the knee caused by a man of standing in the community being reserved soley for cases of imminent and serious risk.)

If the door needs to be held open, I recommend that a hold open device is installed in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7273-4 for Category A or B reliability according to the location of the door in question, which I note that your posting does not describe. Alternatively, the notes could be replaced with my latest book, A Comprehensive Guide to Fire Safety, available for purchase from BSI, or any good bookshop in time as a Christmas present.

PS Did you just love the paragraphing?

[colin todd]

 CIvvy wrote:  I am basing my opinion on three and a half days not being enough time to learn enough fire safety to go out risk assessing buildings.
Sadly, you have clearly never read or understood the course objectives. It is not a fire safety course. It is a fire risk assessment course. It assumes existing fire safety knowledge. We do other courses on fire safety, one of which acts as a feeder for the FRA course, and which we regularly deliver to new inspecting officers of a particular F&RS, who have want both the basic fire safety and FRA courses.

[Thomas Brookes]

Colin,

Please tell me that the BSI Tech meetings will be this entertaining?. Are we allowed sarcasum?

I have just got the web site details through & noted you are on the same ones.

[wee brian]

It is at the ones I go to.

[Thomas Brookes]

Not sure whats your real name?

im on
FSH/012/02 Fire detectors
FSH/12/1 - Installation and servicing
FSH/12/3 - Control and indicating equipment.

[Tom W]

This is all getting interesting! Some people are getting far too heated and there are some chests puffing out. There are lackings in quality on both sides of the fence its just amusing that once one side of the fence gets to a certain age they join the other side!

There are plenty of good courses out there i would only reccomend those who have third party accreditation from the IFE. However wonderful these courses are (and im sure Mr Todd would agree) it cannot give you experience. You must start off small and on a low risk premises. The Risk Assessment must be suitable and sufficient which means you must have a good understanding of the work practices. Quality consultants can go to any premises and grasp what goes on fairly easily but i think there is a new breed of new ones who are biting off more than they can chew.

I stick by my previous statement though and say that there are some bloomin awkard FSOs who are unwilling to listen and prefer to see codes of practice as the definitive guide.

[Thomas Brookes]

I am not saying they are poor qualifications, nor am I saying that the fire officers are better at the task. I am simply saying that none of the qualifications on their own make you a good risk assessor.

People love having a go at FSO's about lack of training. So where should we all go for our training? Does the Nebosh touch on BS9999, ADB, BS5588, BS7974, BR368 etc etc etc?

Nebosh does not look in detail at any British Standard, What it does how ever is equip you to know where to find the extra iformation that may be needed.
I can guarantee that no one on here can quote chapter and verse BS9999, ADB, BS5588, BS7974, BR368, Bs5839, Bs5306, BS5266 etc etc etc, it would be physically impossible, I doubt even the Great Mr Todd could do this on every standard, but I am sure he knows where to find the answers.
What most competent RA's will do is go back and research any thing thats out the ordinary so they can quote the relevent British Standards or building codes etc.
I recently spent 2 days reasearching steel beam protection for a customer, case historys,standards building codes etc etc.

[Davo]

IMO

Fire Safety is similar to H & S in only one manner
You get code huggers who ban everything/demand hard hats for standing on a kick stool etc
Or you get those like me who like to practice common sense and reason
To defend our FRS colleagues, the ratio of good to bad I/Os I have met is 10 to one, 90% will listen to reason.
Perhaps the next guidance note will iron out a few more problems


davo

[Chris Houston]

Just out of interest, where did all you experienced consultants receive your training?

Mr Todds 3 and a half day wonder-course?

A few weeks of a NEBOSH?

BEng? BSc? (IMO, you can roll it up and wedge a door open with it for all the good it does with run-of-the-mill fire safety. Always looks good on a business card and in court though, that is granted.)

Or built up over many years? If so, where did you start?

Personaly speaking, 3 years doing a BA degree in risk management, nebosh general certificate, self learning, 2 years designing fire alarms, 6 years insurance surveying, fellowship of IRM, membership of IFE, fire experience from 3 years in red cross fire emergency responce, visits to fire scenes follow large insurance losses, on the job training from experienced collegues.

I tend to limit myself to simple FRAs due to lack of awareness of some standards but am familiar with some.

Despite knowing my limits I seem to meet plenty who don't and still use bluff, persuasion and guesswork. 

[CivvyFSO]

Sadly, you have clearly never read or understood the course objectives. It is not a fire safety course. It is a fire risk assessment course. It assumes existing fire safety knowledge. We do other courses on fire safety, one of which acts as a feeder for the FRA course, and which we regularly deliver to new inspecting officers of a particular F&RS, who have want both the basic fire safety and FRA courses.

I was not claiming your course was aimed at ensuring that people can go out risk assessing, I am pointing out that there is very little out there that would immediately qualify an FSO to go out inspecting, or a risk assessor to go out assessing. We all have to learn by experience. (And also asking the question, where do the consultants get their skills/experience/training)

The sad issue with the FRS is that we are in a period of 'handover' almost. All the 'old boys' are leaving at the same time, taking their experience with them. Not a bad thing for some of them, but there were some very good ones. This means that we have a high level of inexperience at the moment. The good news is, hopefully most of these people, instead of having a few years in fire safety before they retire, will still be doing the job in 10/15/20 years time. This should lead to good retention of knowledge, and hopefully happier punters.

And your paragraphing was much better. It was actually quite readable, thank you.

[CivvyFSO]

Alternatively, the notes could be replaced with my latest book, A Comprehensive Guide to Fire Safety, available for purchase from BSI, or any good bookshop in time as a Christmas present.

Funnily enough I have a copy of that. Not enough pretty pictures for my liking, but quite good. I will get back to you in due course with any more constructive comments.

[Thomas Brookes]

I think Colin should give us all a signed one free, as a thank you for us asking stupid questions

[kurnal]

I will accept the book thanks. No need to go to the trouble of signing it Colin but thanks for the offer.

[Tom Sutton]

After the volatile Ding Dong it appears its, six of one and half a dozen of the other is there any solutions, maybe training needs a higher profile, does registration have a part to play, should the CLG be playing a greater role or do we have to wait until things settle down?

The good news is, hopefully most of these people, instead of having a few years in fire safety before they retire, will still be doing the job in 10/15/20 years time. This should lead to good retention of knowledge, and hopefully happier punters.

Do you know if this is the same for most FRS's are the days of jumping in and out of Fire Safety, firmly in the past?

[CivvyFSO]

Some of the smaller Brigades will not have the funding to have seperate operational crews and fire safety officers, but many of the others are coming round to the use of civilian Inspectors. At the moment there is a reasonable mix of ex-operational and 'new' people, and I think this helps. But since operational crews are now not doing fire safety as part of their training the benefits to be had there will cease in the long term.

I am however a firm believer that you do not have to have squirted water at a fire to understand fire safety. But I would say that wouldn't I?

* Civvy walks off pretending he knows about fire safety. *