Halon Extinguishers

[nim]

As long as the pin fits, there is a tamperproof seal and the extinguisher is serviced correctly then there is no problem.

My opinion is that this is not good practise. A plastic pin should never be used with a tamper tag. As mentioned before if the pull part of the pin breaks then you are left with an extinguisher which cannot be used when required. You may have liability insurance but are the consequences and the in depth questioning from your insurance company, health and safety, your customer really, really worth the saving in cost from not replacing the pin and indicator?

I wouldn't stick my neck on the line for £2.

[Psuedonym]

That's the point though isn't it? Saving money. How many firms' sales reps are out there are winning contracts on a desparation £3.50 fee per unit basis, parts included? As you know there are a hell of a lot but you just try telling the client what a **** service they are getting just to find the're not interested in petty things like extingishers. (arguably the most visable fire protection/ H&S example in view in ANY company's premises) Then try to tell the same client that to get a decent service he's gonna have to pay for it.
With that sort of all in contract they (the "service" co.) ar'nt going to replace a D ring plastic pin that has cost them £2 or even carry out the basics for the unit by removing the pin in the first place. We can waffle on forever but the cowboys, large and small will still carry on. Looks like wer'e back to the company policing/ regulator thread again with all those arguments... 

[Thomas Brookes]

You would not believe me if I told you which company I have seen for an all inclusive price of £2.25 per extinguisher, How can small companies compete against this sort of below cost servicing.

Its one of the big ones.

And they will use genuine chubb pins, hint hint!!.

[AnthonyB]

I know what you mean - the Govt contract prices for servicing, supply, etc from the firm with the hot air balloon are  amazingly low and barely above the trade only price.

With the credit crunch, standards risk slipping in order to cut costs and survive - if you are too dear then the work goes elsewhere from larger customers or they don't have it done at all if they are small customers

[kurnal]

Yes but the Govt prices are probably subsidised very heavily by their smaller customers. I can often save my clients more than the cost of my risk assessment fee jus by looking at their invoices for extinguisher maintenance and finding some more realistic quotes. One small shop was paying £48 per extinguisher per year hire fee.

I was in a local chemist who subscribe under the government scheme - interesting to note that their old black CO2 has just been serviced and is in its 12th year since hydraulic test.

[Thomas Brookes]

Their prices for government or local authority work is below cost if you take in consideration wages fuel etc. I complained a few years ago to the mergers and monopolies commission that they were carrying out work at below cost, they said although they could see they were possibly losing money on the extinguishers it would be hard to prove they were using their monopoly unfairly as they may be making money on another side of the contract.

Has anyone tried to complain about them to Feta (now FIA) ?.

A few years ago I took a massive hotel off them and their local engineer went in to see the owner and was slagging my company off saying that our engineers were not qualified (and Chris before you remove this post I have documented evedence of all this). I had to go and see the Owner and take our certification etc with me. The best bit was that up till then I had always sent my engineers on a FETA course by using aRep I still new from when I was their 10 years ago, So all my paperwork for engineers feta courses had their company name on it.
So when the hotel owner saw this he just went mad calling the engineer who had slagged us off.

So after this I complained to FETA that one of their members was slandering my company and told them the full story. The lady said she would look into it and get someone to call me back. Eventually after several more phone calls over the next month Peter Bollands phoned me to deal with the complaint, I asked Peter why he was dealing with this as he was the BAFE man?, he said we all work in the same office so they asked him to deal with it. (Hang on I thought, arnt Feta and BAFE supposed to be seperate bodies). Any how after more badgering I finally got threatening letters from the said company saing that if I wanted to take this accusation further I would have to deal with there solicitors. And we all know they have more money than a small company, in civil courts.

[Psuedonym]

Take them to the cleaners. You have the documented proof and the hotel owner (independent witness), you can be sure there are plenty of firms who will specialise in this sort of case and freely advise you which correct action to take. My bet is "they" will want to settle quietly, which may go toward the staff Christmas do 

On another note: The low all in prices are often thrown in by firms to get the service co. in the door. The large balloon lot who pay my wages probably do it to get contracts in all services - mechanical/electrical/security often as a loss leader. I'm convinced the specific part of the department (Ansul servicing) I work in doesn't make a penny, quite the opposite probably! But the hierachy must obviously look at the bigger picture, all the clients are large nationals and of the "all in" type so following the all disipline service and new installs on an annual basis there will be a viable profit margin.
There is plenty room for the smaller co.s out there but where the big boys walk in with these crazy loss leaders (Iv'e spent many years servicing exts and trying to fight these prices) everyone loses out. The smaller guys have to beat these prices and inevitably service quality diminishes.
My philosophy was always pretty simple: You get what you pay for. Sometimes worked, sometimes not, but I don't believe in dropping standards to win or keep a contract.

[AnthonyB]

To be honest what angers me more isn't always the cheap cowboys (a la 'get what you pay for') but the ones who charge extortionate prices and use underhand practice to gain work ,sell equipment not required & scrap good kit, preying on the good faith of those willing to do right by their fire safety responsibilities.

I'm advising a tenant run management company for a small flat block who have just been triple stung by the famous Elland firm with (1) Scrapping perfectly servicable kit (2) Charging £250 for each replacement (3) Using their infamous carbonated service report with the different second copy so the customer actually signs for new equipment when on his copy he thinks he's only signed for the service visit.

When Joseph Blakeborough & Sons put a Cobra snake on their extinguishers in the 1910's, 20's & early 30's they obviously knew what the future foretold.....

[Allen Higginson]

Just to show that it isn't restricted to extinguishers,I've given up trying to get  local council maintenance contracts on fire alarm systems.
The company currently doing it are charging the client half of our cost price.The first year they replaced bells for electronic sounders on a very adequate system because "they weren't loud enough"!This was followed up by replacing a control panel installed just over a year because the key had went missing (never heard of RS or Maplins obviously for new keyswitches).This list has continued up to now where they have changed two bells in the reception area of a leisure facility for sounders,while the rest of this substantial complex is still bells.
I have tried pricing the contract as tight as possible (to the point that I would have to wear trainers to get round the sites!) but to no avail.I have seen fire escape routes compatmentised with the detectors either side but still the service company signs it off - and there's the problem.If these "professional" independant companies are prpared not to rock the boat then the client seems happy enough to accept their signatures on the report sheet.
Makes me flamin' seeth that it's my rates that are paying for this!!

[kurnal]

Yes Buzz local councils are so prone to this sort of thing.We are appointed fire safety consultants to one particular district council, done all their fire risk assessments and commented on exactly what needs to be upgraded and how,  and then they bring in contractors who over our heads who ignore the findings of the risk assessment, rip oit prefectly adequate systems and put in an L1 everywhere from small offices to blocks of flats.

[Davo]

We pay £3.62 for services, new between £28-41.
No discharge fee as they are replaced due to it being cheaper.
This from a National Company
What environmental crisis?


davo

[kurnal]

Thanks Davo thats a good illustration to use. I bet you are charged for spares, seals,gauge stickers etc.

Many BAFE companies will give you a fully inclusive service for what is not a huge amount more than you are paying now, and include in the fee an element to cover the recharge at the required interval.
Take your current fee, say its replaced at 5 years by a new one at £30 - thats £6 per year plus the service fee- plus spares- probably costing you £11.50 per unit per year. You could get an all inclusive service for much less than that - but most customers only look at the headline figure.

And of course theres environmental considerations as well if you start to look at the carbon footprint of buying new.

[AnthonyB]

Of course several firms can afford an 'all in price' as when the expensive Extended service comes along they just fill in the label. I caught P****c doing this on several sites.

They can do this as they are often left to their own devices and with stored pressure extinguishers is far harder to prove they've done a shine and sign - in past years I've caught out people by the details on the cartridge and the state of the contents (e.g. stale 'living' water!)

[Davo]

Prof

All parts are free, except head cap and hose charged, also environmental disposal two quid.
However, see AB's comments on plastic on another thread

davo

[kurnal]

Absolutely Davo. And I agree with Anthony B as well on the shine and sign. I should have added that these all inclusive prices can work well as part of a maintenance package agreed at the time the extinguishers are first sold, be cautious about anyone who offers it after the initial sale unless they are very diligent in checking all test dates of your kit before giving their price.