Stay Put policy

[natdan]

Hi all,

Just a question to you all out there, I am required to put together a stay put policy for a customer of mine that have properties on there books that house elderly residents and persons that are not able bodied.

Although I am against the "stay put" policy in these circumstances I agree that the policy should protect these persons until a controlled evacuation can take place.

What I am asking for advice on here, is what the policy should contain to protect my client and also myself, and if someone can point me in the direction of an example so I can use for reference.

Another question I also have, is if an existing building does not meet the flow requirements for current regulations what would be the best policy here as it would not be practicle to make these stairways bigger.  Would the stay put policy be best enforced here also?

Thanks in advance.

[kurnal]

Stay put policies for housing can only be safely implemented in buildings that are designed for this in the first place. For flats this involves fire compartmentation, layout of units, travel distance and ventilation. Take a look at BS5588 part 1 or CP3 chapter 4 part 1 1971.

[nearlythere]

Hi all,

Just a question to you all out there, I am required to put together a stay put policy for a customer of mine that have properties on there books that house elderly residents and persons that are not able bodied.

Although I am against the "stay put" policy in these circumstances I agree that the policy should protect these persons until a controlled evacuation can take place.

What I am asking for advice on here, is what the policy should contain to protect my client and also myself, and if someone can point me in the direction of an example so I can use for reference.

Another question I also have, is if an existing building does not meet the flow requirements for current regulations what would be the best policy here as it would not be practicle to make these stairways bigger.  Would the stay put policy be best enforced here also?

Thanks in advance.

Natdan
Are you referring to a Stay Put policy or Progressive Eacuation? What type of premises do you have exactly?

[natdan]

I am refering to a "stay put" policy.  I comment on staged evacuation as this will take place on brigade arrival. 

What I am trying to achieve is to get clear when I should have a "stay put" policy.  The property I have is a council building where the residents that shall we say are not as clear thinking as others, and there is serious poverty in the areas. 

I have been asked to put together a policy on "saty put" in these accomodation blocks, and then somehow deliver the policy to the residents by training them on the policy.

It has become a challenge as there is nowhere that has the "stay put" policy written down for guidelines.

[nearlythere]

I am refering to a "stay put" policy.  I comment on staged evacuation as this will take place on brigade arrival. 

What I am trying to achieve is to get clear when I should have a "stay put" policy.  The property I have is a council building where the residents that shall we say are not as clear thinking as others, and there is serious poverty in the areas. 

I have been asked to put together a policy on "saty put" in these accomodation blocks, and then somehow deliver the policy to the residents by training them on the policy.

It has become a challenge as there is nowhere that has the "stay put" policy written down for guidelines.

You need to be much clearer on the type of premises. Is this a block of flats, a sheltered housing situation or a care home?
If you don't mind me commenting on what you said "...on staged evacuation as this will take place on brigade arrival."
No evacuation procedure must depend on the arrival of the Fire Service.

[Tom W]

You need to be more specific on the type of premises but i wouldn't call it "stay put" if i were you, try delayed evacuation 

[CivvyFSO]

Basically, as mentioned by Kurnal, the premises has to be suitable for a stay put policy. In general this would entail 60 mins compartmentation (If there is a floor above 5m) between each occupiers dwelling, 30 minute fire doors to corridors, possibly ventilation to stairs/corridors or lobbies and a suitable alarm system. If this is in place then a stay-put is probably valid, and generally safer than potentially evacuating people through smoke. Any evacuation done by the FRS would be at their discretion, not down to any specific policy.

Look at it from this point of view: If the compartmentation etc is in place then people are quite safe in their flats, if the necessary measures for stay put are not in place, then by delaying the evacuation you are putting people at more risk.

I have seen it too many times where a RP is aware that it is difficult to evacuate all the people that should be evacuated and they see 'stay put' as an easy way out. A policy does not protect people in their flats, it is really compartmentation/fire resistance that allows them to stay there.

With regards the stairs question, it is unlikely that a stair in a residential building will not meet the flow requirements, can you give any more detail on numbers and staircase widths?

[Big T]

Happy new year to you all.

The only buildings I would consider stay put would be in general needs flats and sheltered accomodation.

If the buildings were designed and constructed in accordance with CP£ or 5588pt1 then as long as the fire risk assessment has not puicked up that all the front doors are not fire rated or something else significant then we wouild operate a stay put policy.

In general needs flats there is no requirement for a fire alarm system so the BS assumes that the fire will be reported to the fire service by a resident or passer by who will then gain access to extinguishe the fire and evacuate residents they deem to be at risk by knocking on the door of flat in the vicinity if required.

Please note this is not a fire brigade rescue and every block of flatse that is built properly relies on the fire service to initiate an evacuation if they deem the the other residents at risk. These buildings are built to ensure fire will not spread.

In Sheltered accomodation a fire alarm is required but not to alaert the residents of a fire in other areas of the building. The alarm is to warn the resident in the flat of origin and the warden / scheme manager / off site monitoring of a fire alarm signal to ensure the fire service is called early to extinguish a fire and to ask residents to leave the building if they deem it necessary.

You are still evacuating under your own steam but the brigade are asking you to leave. Realistically the fire will not break through a 30minute self closing flat entrance door for at least 30 minutes and that is if the fire started in the same compartment as the front door, which is unlikely as flats are built to ensure that fire is unlikely to start in this area.

It is important to note though that stay out doesn't mean "do nothing" in a sheltwered scheme. Getting dressed, preparing to leave ensuring your front door is closed closing doors in your flat etc are all important things that are often overlooked

[CivvyFSO]

It is important to note though that stay out doesn't mean "do nothing" in a sheltwered scheme. Getting dressed, preparing to leave ensuring your front door is closed closing doors in your flat etc are all important things that are often overlooked

But how do they know to get dressed if they have not been alerted?

[Midland Retty]

Just to add to Big T's summary...Many sheltered schemes have a monitored stand alone smoke detector and interlinked heat detector in each individual flat.

So if the occupant has merely burnt the toast the smoke detector will activate first (arousing the attention of the resident and warden or call centre to do something about it - but other residents won't be disturbed at this point)

If it is a genuine blaze (and the resident or warden has not reacted to the smoke alarm for whatever reason) the heat detector will eventually activate, setting off the common fire alarm system to warn other residents that a fire is in progress.

When the common fire alarm is activated residents should start to get themselves ready to be evacuated at a moments notice by either the warden or fire service personnel knocking on their doors. So in the middle of the  night for instance they should get out of bed, get themselves dressed etc etc and await further instructions. They should not remain in bed as some people incorrectly believe.

It maybe that the fire is quickly brought under control and there is no need to evacuate the residents, but the point here with stay put policies is that residents must be ready to be evacuate ASAP after the common fire alarm has sounded rather just turn over in bed, thinking they will be perfectly safe and going back to sleep.

[Thomas the tank]

With reference to compartment size. What would the recommended number of bedrooms be for a compartment providing 60 minutes fire protection?
If 3 staff were on duty at night,  what would be reasonable if horizontal were required?

[kurnal]

The goal in theory is to evacuate the bedroom compartment within 2.5 minutes. In practical terms its a goal that cant be achieved. So in utopia the the answer may be one. The old guidance used to suggest 10 or 12 bedrooms. It depends on the characteristics of the service user, the staff, the management,  standards of maintenance, the history and the layout of the building, the equipment and facilities provided, whether there are sprinklers etc. Perhaps 4 to 6 may be realistic in some cases, 10 to 12 in others?

[jokar]

CSCI will tell you the ratio of staff to occupants that they expect and that will have an effect on the usage.

[Ricardo]

The ratio you refer to Jokar, I take it thats for care purposes only and nothing to do with fire safety matters?

[colin todd]

Absoulutely right, Riccardo. The Scottish Government guides promote a logical approach in that respect.