Student Accom

[Davo]

Surely seals have been recommended by BS and FRS for some years, therefore should the doors have had seals anyways?

davo

ps Stick it to 'em Prof!

[nearlythere]

Surely seals have been recommended by BS and FRS for some years, therefore should the doors have had seals anyways?

davo

ps Stick it to 'em Prof!

Not if they were installed before the BS & FRS came out. Not all FRSs pushed intumescent strips.

[colin todd]

1. Kurnal, whether you regard this as equivalent to the risk of a single family dwelling is your prerogative, but people here love to quote from standards, and BS 5839-6 is quite specific that the risk in a shared student house is equivalent to that of a single family dwelling. This assertion was based on extensive Government funded research, rather than someone's gut feel. Other guidance documents take the same view.
2. Celeveland, happy to qualify. You need a wee man tot ake the door off, rout it and refit, with some repainting if necessary. Aside from material cost, the labour cost is extensive. Cognisant as I am that many people simply make demands for fire precautions with no understanding of the cost involved, I actually reduced my cost estimate to way below actual market costs so that it would not be a point of contention, but since you wish to raise it recent costs to one housing association were £180 per door, while a hotel chain ahs been quoted over £200 per door. (Perhaps though we could get moonlighting fire-fighters to undercut tradesmen. )
3. Kurnal, I am sure that you are aware that a heat detector will operate well before the temperatures required for flashover.
4. Cleveland, the gentleman was not asking about property protection, but if you want that why not sprinkler the place as well. Money is clearly no object to the Firenetters.
5. Celeveland, au contraire, the flats are no different from a shared student house. The fire in the flat does not know that there are lots of similar flats.
5. Davo, one does not fit smoke seals on internal flat doors, nor usually intumescent strips. Building control have presumably treated this as a block of flats, but then what would they know, as all they do is stay in building control for their whole career, rather than doing fire safety for a few years as a career move. Just as well they would have had a statutory obligation to consult the experts though before passing the plans isnt it..........................
6. JPAH. it is not so much a game of tennis as tooth extraction with no anaesthetic.

[kurnal]

Dear Colin
My gut is not infallible but I am rather fond of it and take note of what it tells me.  On the other hand I note that you have recently discarded yours and now seek solace in quoting guidance - but it does strike me as odd that you only usually quote from that which you have written yourself. 

Heres someone else's research "The chances of you being injured or dying as a result of a fire are ten times higher in a house occupied on a shared basis (e.g. by students or young single adults) than in a traditional family home"  Central College Glasgow Accommodation Guide.


http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/student-halls/article-602810-detail/article.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2136156/Oxford-University-fire-could-have-been-started-by-a-student-making-breakfast.html

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Party-candles-spark-university-fire.4787644.jp

http://www.avonfire.gov.uk/Avon/News/Cooking+sparks+fire+in+student+halls.htm

[kurnal]

Davo
Current building Regs specify FD20 doors for the protected lobbies in flats and FD30S for the main entrance door. FD20 doors aren't always  easy to find and may or may not have fire seals depending on what was submitted for test by the manufacturer. Often FD30 doorsets are fitted by default because its easier and no more expensive.

But theres flats and flats. And some wishy washy guidance. The Approved Document B is clear and specific but does not clearly address the flats in multiple occupation. It does set a travel distance of 9m max which rather limits the size of the flat usually to about 3 bedrooms. My sons halls of residence flat last year had a travel distance of 12m in the lobby as it had 5 bedrooms. I guess with six bedrooms in this case it may push it even further.
Theres the lacors guidance that effectively leaves it open to risk assessment, this starts from the premise that only the flat entrance door needs to be fire  resisting and other rooms within the flat may be ok if they are in good nick and fit well. It then goes on to waffle about higher risk and fire doors.  As always it comes down to horses for courses.

[colin todd]

Ah Kurnal, Kurnal, what am I to do with you? Now I know when you were in what my old mother called fire brigades and King George ruled the nation, the definition of fire risk was the chance of fire occurring. But see the MODERN definition of risk is liklihood of a hazardous event (in this case a fire in a student residence) occurring multiplied by the consequences if it does occur. Now I know you hate facts, but can I correct one or two of your mis-facts.

1. I did not write the Entec report that showed that the RISK to students in share houses was no different to that in a single family dwelling, and in any case it wasnt just written in the sense of plucked out of thin air, it was DISCOVERED from research.

2. While I DRAFTED BS 5839-6, I cannot claim authorship, which belongs to a committee of national experts including all your fire brigade chums from CFOA etc.

3. I did NOT write the LACORS guide, about which you are so disparaging but that appears to support my views, presumably because the authors were devoid of the services of your gut.

4. The figure of 10 does NOT apply to shared houses-it is a figure that applies generically to ALL HMOs. You need to do your "research" more carefully. Must try harder I see written on your thesis.

5. I have been telling fire officers for 30 years that when they reduce the arguement to "... there was once a fire somewhere or other...", it is a feeble attempt at scraping the barrel, because there is no rational basis for their case and its time to end the discussion. There was once a plane crash on the M1, but I still fly BMI to Belfast regularly, in what I hope is the certain knowledge that the anomalous circumstances are unlikely to happen again.

4. And now we come to liklihood and consequences, where you first went off the rails as it were. But always eager to learn from an expert, I researched as you instructed all the incidents in question and here are my findings.

Kurnal exhibit 1, and I quote from the said exhibit:  "Students were allowed back inside a short time later. No one was injured"
Kurnal exhibit 2, and I quote from the said exhibit:  "All students were accounted for and no one was injured in the fire, which was quickly brought under control."
Kurnal exhibit 3, and I quote from the said exhibit:  "The blaze destroyed part of a kitchen and left the rest of the flat badly smoke-damaged."
Kurnal exhibit 4, and I quote from the said exhibit:  "As the fire alarm was sounding when crews arrived, the occupants of the building were all outside. No one was hurt."

I was hoping to put all this "research" in my CPD diary, but then I realized that the finding were diddly squat, namely that sometimes there are fires in dwellings but that in the case of student residences, Ker Chink (to quote one of Galleons phrases, which always make me smile) the fire alarm goes off, out the kddies go (eventually) no one is hurt, and it simply proves the point eloquently (for which i thank you) that the risk from fire in a student residence, particularly with comprehensive AFD and half decent self closing doors is about the size of a knats poo.  Returning home station. Night night.

[Midland Retty]

Sir Colin, fancy posting over the weekend when I'm not around to reply or chastise you!

Whilst you are correct in stating that fire doesn't discriminate between say a Halls of residence or single domestic dwelling (SDD) you have to acknowledge that the two properties are very different animals for very different reasons.

And aside from the usual differences of size and occupany levels one main issue is the old chesnut about the level of "control" excercised in such premises.

In my opinion it is due to the fact that standards are enforced in HMOs, halls of residence, bedsits etc etc that we don't normally get many deaths in those premises. But that said we still get a lot of near misses.

As far as I'm aware this topic relates to student halls of residence, not shared houses. I appreciate why LACORS allows for lesser standards in shared houses but those standards can't be applied to student halls of residence or HMOs for good reason.

In halls of residence students are lumped together with other sudents they dont necessarily know or get along with. There is little inclination for them to "look out" for one another.

Couple that with the fact it is often the first time students are living away from home. The temptation to do things with their new found freedom leads to late night parties, alcohol / drugs / general silly shannigans, etc etc.

Also you find study bedrooms can be quite stuffy, so doors get propped open to aid ventilation, and there is often insufficient storeage space for students to put all their gear - thus you find all their possesions strewn around the room adding to the general fire loading.

Before you know it all these factors add up resulting in a higher risk.

Now you are quite right Doctor Col all these problems and shannigans could equally crop up in a Single Domestic Dwelling,and a SDD is where we will most likely get fire deaths.

But firstly we cant enforce standards in SDDs and most importantly if I was stupid enough to do something in my own home that put my family's lives in danger then I'd do that well and truly at my own risk.... BUT my action would not generally affect any "innocent" third parties (i.e people who werent stopping in my house at the time).
 
If i do something stupid in a halls of residence however "innocent" third parties could be put at risk UNLESS adequate precautions are in place to prevent that from happening.
 
Remember people are more inclined to look after family and friends than they would strangers.

As a fire officer I do practice what I preach. I do for instance have smoke detection installed at Retty Towers. It is not however to the same level or standard as that required in Hall of residence , HMO or shared house exactly for the reasons I give above.

Now lastly let's look at financial reward. If I invite you and your good lady to Retty Towers and you stay overnight as my prisoners, sorry guests, you accept that you are living under my roof, but because we are best chums now Col Im not going to do anything to put you or the good lady Todd at risk. There is you would agree a moral obligation there.

If you paid to stay at the "Retty Towers" Hotel however not only would you expect to see me dressed up as Basil Retty, doing silly walks and shouting at foreign waiters, you would also expect good service and to stay in a safe place where your loved ones aren't put at risk. Part of the money you give to me goes toward keeping you safe.

And if your kids were to go off to uni you would want to know that they were stopping in a safe place too?

The government recognises this as something called  "a duty of care".

[kurnal]

Thanks Colin. All good stuff.

I dont disparage any guidance. Its a good benchmark and a tool to inform  ones judgement on what is ALARP. It actually helps when they contradict each other as they do because then it gives me good justification for consulting my not insubstantial gut.

And my gut tends to be a little more consistent than some of the guidance. Eg., cf. 5839 part 6 / FSO Sleeping guide / ADB. All as previously discussed on this forum. The links were not to suggest that people are losing their lives- thats something to be celebrated-  its all about potential and consequences as you say.  Human factors will ensure that fires do and always will occur, all of the instances quoted illustrated the fact that students in these places often do not behave as occupiers of a conventional domestic situation. Like cooking in the middle of the night when others will be in bed. 

[colin todd]

Earl Retty. The issue is not whether one should enforce but the standards that should be adopted. People run on the tramlines of names, such as HMO, flats, shared houses, etc, rather than thinking about risk. Knee jerk reactions to names are not what fire risk assessment is about. And its odd isnt it, that building control were happy, presumably after consultation with the F&R Authority, the previous fire risk assessor was happy, poor old J whatever was happy, all of whom know the site intimately. But as soon as poor old J whatisname asks people down the pub, on scant information, they all want him to tell the client to spend loads of dosh based on generic prejudices based on a few lines of information, the fact that there was once a fire somewhere and some rumbling in a gut probably caused by eating irregular meals while waiting for the bells to go down. You may also want to see what Lord Denning said about fire precautions in student houses.

As for the former Lady Todd (as was), she would probably not wish to share Retty Towers with me. I, myself, sometimes share accommodation with a beautiful Princess, but you will have to wait in the queue to accommodate us, as the wee man in D&G with the B&B was first in the queue. And all those who want excessive fire precautions simply play into the hands of his B&B chums, who then understandably mistrust fire specialists who tell them to put in reasonable fire precautions.

[colin todd]

Kurnal. Always pleased to be of service to an old hero of the F&RS. With regard to cooking in the middle of the night, alas you are, once again, off beam. I, myself, cooked two rashers of bacon in the microwave at 4am the other day, just before retiring to bed, while Lady Todd (Junior) lay sleeping in her bed. For avoidance of doubt, while I was a student for six happy years of my life, I am now only a student of life and the mire created by the reform of fire safety legislation.

[Midland Retty]

We will have to agree to disagree on this one Marquis Todd.

I agree that you need to take individual premises on their own merits and not just simply apply generic labels, but our comments, I feel, aren't knee jerks they are just simply pointers and things to think about when dealing with those types of premises and completing the fire risk assessment.

[kurnal]

Whilst you learned Gentlemen are handing around titles I should tell you that someone once called me a bit of a Count.

[nearlythere]

Like cooking in the middle of the night when others will be in bed. 

And most likely when in various states of inebriation.
Ahhh, those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end. We'd sing and dance for ever and a day.
Everybody now.

[kurnal]

For avoidance of doubt, while I was a student for six happy years of my life, I am now only a student of life and the mire created by the reform of fire safety legislation.

Well Colin you must have been a really slow learner to need all those extra years. When they chucked me out of school at 15 they said there was no point in trying to teach me any more.

[JPAH]

Guys thanks for messing with my head.     

I suppose the main reason I see this type of residence being more at risk than typical dwellings is the fact that if a fire starts the person who sees it [or starts it] will sod off without warning others.  This is unlikely to happen in a dwelling with a family unit.  Therefore, to mitigate for this an enhanced detection system is installed [and self-closing devices to boot!!].  If false alarms are minimal - which they appeared to be from my inspection - and house-keeping is generally good, then the sod who sods off isn't as critical. 

Therefore, I reckon [yet another change of mind!!] I will go with my initial instinct and not ask for anything to be done to the doors.  If I wait any longer to get this thing finished it will be time for the annual review. 

I am extremely conscious of not imposing 'unnecessary' costs onto any client and am aware of the ALARP principle, but I do genuinely feel there is not too much wrong here.  There is also 24 hour management presence onsite which makes me feel slightly better.

thanks again.