Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion

[CivvyFSO]

hammer, this is related to the application of the Scottish guidance docs. And don't forget that a house over 7.5m will be likely to be 4 storeys at least.

Lastly the students themselves were deemed not intelligent enough to have a certain amount of responsibility themselves in keeping fire doors shut and keeping the means of escape free of obstruction and most importantly reducing the risk of fire starting in the first place  (I take it no first aid fire fighting appliances are in place and no fire emergency plan that is communicated to tenants)

100% accuracy. A+

[hammer1]

hammer, this is related to the application of the Scottish guidance docs. And don't forget that a house over 7.5m will be likely to be 4 storeys at least.

Lastly the students themselves were deemed not intelligent enough to have a certain amount of responsibility themselves in keeping fire doors shut and keeping the means of escape free of obstruction and most importantly reducing the risk of fire starting in the first place  (I take it no first aid fire fighting appliances are in place and no fire emergency plan that is communicated to tenants)

100% accuracy. A+

Sorry I did not see the over 7.5m section. So that does raise some issues then, wonder what the travel distances are??, how long the corridors are (if there are any)??


What would you guys say is the main function of sprinkler systems ?? Is it life safety or property safety (I would say by how the insurance bods get all giddy it would be the latter). Would you class passive fire protection higher for life safety than sprinkler installation. If it came down to cost would you advise investing in passive fire protection first.

Obviously in an ideal world you would want both and sprinklers all day long, especially to new builds and major refurbs. But in the real world where money talks maybe not.

Saying all that I have not got a scooby of how much a domestic sprinkler system would cost to install in a 4 storey building...

[hammer1]

How would we all feel if the proposal had been for sprinklers in lieu of the second staircase for a new build? Or a conversion?

It happens quite a lot.

Jokar, the sprinkler system activating in a fire will usually cause considerably less damage than leaving it to the FRS to deal with a fully developed fire.

But unless you are working in insurance or business continuity, surely this should not even become an issue. I thought the legislation is about life safety and preserving life and the role of the enforcing fire authorities is to uphold the legislation in what ever way they feel fit to maintain this (obviously with certain bench marks and guidelines to work from). Who gives a monkeys about water damage in the whole scheme of things.  It only becomes an issue when you have to mitigate the effects from fire (pollution etc).

Or am I reading from the wrong Hymn sheet again

[CivvyFSO]

I think you misunderstood my point. It was a reply to Jokar's concern regarding water damage from a sprinkler system and basically comparing the two, intended in a similar vein to what you said, but more of an emphasis on not refusing to install a sprinkler system because of the possiblity of water damage.

Regarding the actual provision of a sprinkler system in the regard that this topic is discussing; It will be to ensure the life safety of other people in the building. The FRS involved will not have been challenging anything for property protection. (Even with this particular expert witness' help.)

If we have a fire in a room where it is sprinkler controlled, it is much less likely to make it out of that room. Even if the smoke makes it out, it should be reasonably cool, and unless you are sleeping in a HMO with all the doors to the stair open, thus allowing smoke into your room, the system should be enough to guarantee your life as far as is possible. (If you decide to sleep with all the doors open then you would probably live slightly longer with a sprinkler system installed but the end result would be similar although with less charring.)

Disclaimer: I am not saying that all single stair flats require sprinkler systems, or that statistics justify it, just pointing out where it would help.

[hammer1]

I think you misunderstood my point. It was a reply to Jokar's concern regarding water damage from a sprinkler system and basically comparing the two, intended in a similar vein to what you said, but more of an emphasis on not refusing to install a sprinkler system because of the possiblity of water damage.

Regarding the actual provision of a sprinkler system in the regard that this topic is discussing; It will be to ensure the life safety of other people in the building. The FRS involved will not have been challenging anything for property protection. (Even with this particular expert witness' help.)

If we have a fire in a room where it is sprinkler controlled, it is much less likely to make it out of that room. Even if the smoke makes it out, it should be reasonably cool, and unless you are sleeping in a HMO with all the doors to the stair open, thus allowing smoke into your room, the system should be enough to guarantee your life as far as is possible. (If you decide to sleep with all the doors open then you would probably live slightly longer with a sprinkler system installed but the end result would be similar although with less charring.)

Disclaimer: I am not saying that all single stair flats require sprinkler systems, or that statistics justify it, just pointing out where it would help.

Thanks for that

Just playing devils advocate here, but surely if they are fire doors then students are wedging them open. I suppose if the smoke detection sensors (that's if they are SD in the rooms and not HD) are sensitive to create early warning of fire, therefore giving occupants extra minutes to evacuate, there is a risk of false alarms (drunk student, think they are hard rebels lighting a fag). To counter this, would installation of hush buttons be a good solution?? never seen or used them myself but might be an alternative.

Obviously the furniture and possible ignitions sources in these rooms need to be looked at and how a fire could start and develop. Seems to me with students wedging doors open, lack of management might be something that needs addressing first and all the trappings that entails.

There is a good article on C-TEC's hush buttons in the fsp magazine that might be worth reading.

As you might of noticed, I have not a lot on today at work........

[CivvyFSO]

I think we are veering off topic here a bit. Probably better to create a new topic about students in HMO's and what we can do to protect them from themselves.

[Mike Buckley]

Couple of points.

The first is damage in the vast majority of cases the fire is extinguished by one or two sprinklers and these will operate very soon after the fire has started (usually less than a minute). The big red lorries will take at least 4 minutes to get there from the time of call. In well ventilated cases a room can flashover in under 4 minutes. The fire damage is going to be far greater due to the elapsed time.

Second have a look at the test videos which show the effect of sprinklers, the ones on the Station club fire are very good. These normally show that in the sprinkler protected room survival is likely as the smoke and heat produced is far less than in an unprotected room.

Yes sprinklers protect property but it usually the property that is burning that is cusing the problem.

[nearlythere]

Anyone help me source an article or post where a Belfast property management company was prosecuted for failing to properly manage a building in England?
This would have been within the last year or so.

[Tom W]

Can't think of a company from Belfast but then im sure someone else can.

As anyone thought it was spooky that two property management companies in London were prosecuted...

Watchacre - 8 contraventions £21k + 4 months in the clink.

Shoalacre - 7 contraventions - £25k

I may of just done loads of Londons work for them. Target all companies ending in "acre" JOB DONE 

[graz]

the Irish owners of the Frenchgate Centre in Doncaster were proscecuted earlier this year for failing to manage the premises correctly.

[Tom Sutton]

It looks like graz has found it. http://www.southyorks.gov.uk/index.asp?id=2445

[nearlythere]

Well done Graz and TW. Have an extra sherbert tonight on me please.
Must remember to download and save to e-brain.

[nearlythere]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8379503.stm
Makes one wonder if the failure to provide a suitable and sufficient FRA was the absence of one completely or an unsuitable and insufficient existing?
Anyone know?

[AnthonyB]

Having done landlord's inspections of several NL stores then there is a strong chance one existed, but of the tick box variety done by in house staff.

[nearlythere]

Having done landlord's inspections of several NL stores then there is a strong chance one existed, but of the tick box variety done by in house staff.

Last week I found that it isn't only in house staff who do tick box assessments. The one I saw was by a very large national outfit which produced an assessment which only shouts out for some sort of regulation and certification.
I am at a complete loss as to why the fee payer considered it worth paying anything over the paper value.