Heat detector on an escape route....

[David Rooney]

We look after a theatre where a particular production is using a lot of stage smoke that tends to drift rear of house and up staircases etc towards the dressing rooms.

Normally the routine in such circumstance is to isolate the affected detetectors during show periods and de-isolate at hometime.

However, the insurance company has now said that if any part of the system is isolated and there is a problem then the theatre "won't be insured".

The system manufacturer does not make CO detectors, it is on redcare and it is a two stage alarm from the point of view that during a show detectors are indication/beacons only unless a search timer runs out then there is a managed evacuation supported by the voice alarm system.

The theatre is asking if we can install heat detectors as it's a major pain having up to "a dozen" detectors in alarm condition, with beacons flashing and pagers paging..!!

Obviously heat detectors are a no no but does anyone have any ideas or views ??

[Big_Fella]

The scenario you talk about is exactly the same as a theatre we look after, which beacons etc during production and voice alarm activating after a set time.

Sounds like a tricky situation, although the system is deteing a problem, therefore doing what it should be doing.

Might be worth your client speaking with the insurance company to explain the situation in depth, or even putting it in writing and offering a solution of providing heat sensors in certain areas (although we all don't like this) and see what they say.

Other than isolating the sensors, or changing to heat, there isn't really much more you could offer, unless you looked at an alternative manufacturer.

Would it be possible to even install a secondary system in this area to run, say CO detectors or dual Optical/Heat sensors for example, linking into the existing system?

I know this gets a little messy, but the options do seem a little limited

[nearlythere]

We look after a theatre where a particular production is using a lot of stage smoke that tends to drift rear of house and up staircases etc towards the dressing rooms.

Normally the routine in such circumstance is to isolate the affected detetectors during show periods and de-isolate at hometime.

However, the insurance company has now said that if any part of the system is isolated and there is a problem then the theatre "won't be insured".

The system manufacturer does not make CO detectors, it is on redcare and it is a two stage alarm from the point of view that during a show detectors are indication/beacons only unless a search timer runs out then there is a managed evacuation supported by the voice alarm system.

The theatre is asking if we can install heat detectors as it's a major pain having up to "a dozen" detectors in alarm condition, with beacons flashing and pagers paging..!!

Obviously heat detectors are a no no but does anyone have any ideas or views ??

Can you not  provide an alternative like the provision of a manual call point in that area and have a suitably trained human detector or detectors present for the relevant period? A human being is as good as, if not better, than an automatic heat and smoke detector, in fact in many cases automatic detection is installed because humans may not be around.

[Big_Fella]

Thats currently what they do have, the smoke sensors are isolated and staff are the human detectors, although the insurance company have said this isnt good enough and if the sensors are isolated this would void the insurance

[nearlythere]

Thats currently what they do have, the smoke sensors are isolated and staff are the human detectors, although the insurance company have said this isnt good enough and if the sensors are isolated this would void the insurance

I'm thinking more of dedicated fire and smoke monitors whose sole purpose is just that. This may be more acceptable to the insurance company especially if you used off duty firefighters. If not I would suggest other insurance companies may be more accommodating.

[David Rooney]

Thats currently what they do have, the smoke sensors are isolated and staff are the human detectors, although the insurance company have said this isnt good enough and if the sensors are isolated this would void the insurance

I'm thinking more of dedicated fire and smoke monitors whose sole purpose is just that. This may be more acceptable to the insurance company especially if you used off duty firefighters. If not I would suggest other insurance companies may be more accommodating.

But we are talking about theatre land here where men can be women and no one wants to spend a lot of money....can't see them going for monitors... i think that would too dificult to manage and ensure they are where they are supposed to be... however the idea of the "secondary" system is food for thought... will look in to it..... thanks men....

[Wiz]

Simply replace the insurance company with one that has a bit of common sense (might be hard to find but well worth the effort!)

[kurnal]

I agree with Wiz. Ask the insurers to justify their position and test the market.

However I must ask why this smoke is getting from the stage into the staircases and what would happen if there was a real fire on the stage? Doors wedged? Defective seals? Poor layout or arrangements that could be modified?

Are the stairs used by members of the public as escape routes - or exits from the choir stalls etc? If they are just the route between backstage and dressing rooms we need to consider what category of fire alarm system we really need here.

In some theatre arrangements there perhaps is no need for these routes to have automatic detection for life safety, if its purely for property protection then sensitive heats may be ok subject to the level of provision elsewhere.

The bottom line is that disablement is both realistic and sensible in an occupied building provided there are documented and robust procedures to ensure that such disablements are minimised to isolate devices rather than loops or zones, and  removed as soon as possible after each performance.

[David Rooney]

The theatre is just one of a large group and it's not as easy as renewing your car insurance...!!

The system was originally installed to meet L2/P2, the designs agreed by the brigade, westminster council and the insurers.

The theatre is Edwardian... listed... various doors leading off stage and during performances the stage smoke drifts everywhere via doors and traps that are in constant use by the players.

The corridors and staircases to dressing rooms are typical 1m ish wide not generally "open" to the public but can be via stage door. The staircases can typically go from basement to the roof with a single door leading to corridors and dressing rooms at 4 or five levels.

If there was a real fire on stage - during daytime immediate evac - showtime, fried actors and audience demanding money back, or chearing... depends on the show !!

We are not going to get nice new fire doors and smoke seals in this environment.... afraid we have to play the cards we are dealt...

But it is annoying when we deal with other theatres that do employ isolations when particular shows require it and nobody seems to complain there....

[Big_Fella]

Obviously not sure what system is currently installed.

BUT...

How about Combined Optical/Heat sensors, where the Optical element can be programmed out during particular times, or by the turn of an addressable keyswitch, therefore there is always an automatic sensor in situ.  You may have to look at increasing the amount of sensors in the area for when the heat element is only active.

Although some optical/heat sensors don't have this facility so it depends on the manufacturer

[Graeme]

The theatre is Edwardian... listed...

EMS Dave?

[kurnal]

The theatre is just one of a large group and it's not as easy as renewing your car insurance...!!

Yes but test the market- they wont know whether you are serious or not. It smacks of unfair contract terms if they are threatening to leave you with cover for using the fire alarm system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions- they all recommend disablement where necessary to avoid unwanted signals.

[David Rooney]

The theatre is Edwardian... listed...

EMS Dave?

Afraid so..... therefore quite limited .....

[David Rooney]

The theatre is just one of a large group and it's not as easy as renewing your car insurance...!!

Yes but test the market- they wont know whether you are serious or not. It smacks of unfair contract terms if they are threatening to leave you with cover for using the fire alarm system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions- they all recommend disablement where necessary to avoid unwanted signals.

I'll put it to the board...!!

And i do agree... i think it raises issues for other establishments that delay or sounders or isolate areas... could it give insurers an excuse not to pay out ??

[Wiz]

The theatre is just one of a large group and it's not as easy as renewing your car insurance...!!

Yes but test the market- they wont know whether you are serious or not. It smacks of unfair contract terms if they are threatening to leave you with cover for using the fire alarm system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions- they all recommend disablement where necessary to avoid unwanted signals.

I'll put it to the board...!!

And i do agree... i think it raises issues for other establishments that delay or sounders or isolate areas... could it give insurers an excuse not to pay out ??

Yes, the most important person to get to agree to a variation is always the the insurer!

I always make sure my customers appreciate the importance of this, because insurers will always use any option available to avoid paying claims. This trait is genetically programmed into an insurer.

If the customer hasn't got them to agree a variation from BS, then that will be their excuse not to pay.

Obviously, the insurers say no to every request to variations. This is their easy option. They probably don't understand fire alarm systems and they probably haven't got the technical/practical ability to understand the implications of the request for a variation, so it is easier to say no. They don't care what problems just saying 'no' might cause the customer.

However, many insurance companies suddenly become much more amenable to suggestions once they realise a fat juicy annual premium is at risk if they don't properly consider the request.

I would imagine the insurance premium for a large theatre group would be big enough to get an insurance company to put a bit of effort into keeping it!

Why not get the customer to commission a professional report written by someone who can assess the risks of protecting these escape routes with heat detectors during performances only (and with smoke otherwise),and then use it in support of your application for a variation agreement to the insurers. Obviously, the report might include other fire safety recommendations that may be required to allow the use of the isolation/heat detectors.