Fire Investigations

[Cat]

I am just interested in people's opinion on this.  From my limited understanding and from talking to people in fire investigation it would appear to me that of all the crime scenes that could be investigated, fire scenes have been the most "neglected" up until recent years i.e they haven't necessarily been classed as crime scenes when maybe they should have until something suggested otherwise.  My questions are, has this been the case and if so why because if there is a murder, burglary, RTC etc, you know it will be investigated properly so why not fire scenes?

Could this be due to the number of "bodies" involved i.e Fire service, police, insurance, forensics, pathology (if a dead body is found) etc where the different "bodies" point fingers in everybody elses' direction as to who is responsible for investigating it?  Is it lack of understanding of fires or because of the compexity of fires and the investigations that need to be carried out?

I hope this makes sense!!!

[nearlythere]

I am just interested in people's opinion on this.  From my limited understanding and from talking to people in fire investigation it would appear to me that of all the crime scenes that could be investigated, fire scenes have been the most "neglected" up until recent years i.e they haven't necessarily been classed as crime scenes when maybe they should have until something suggested otherwise.  My questions are, has this been the case and if so why because if there is a murder, burglary, RTC etc, you know it will be investigated properly so why not fire scenes?

Could this be due to the number of "bodies" involved i.e Fire service, police, insurance, forensics, pathology (if a dead body is found) etc where the different "bodies" point fingers in everybody elses' direction as to who is responsible for investigating it?  Is it lack of understanding of fires or because of the compexity of fires and the investigations that need to be carried out?

I hope this makes sense!!!

It is really up to the police to decide if there has been a criminal act involved in a fire or not. Not quite sure what you are getting at though? Are you suggesting that all fires are investigated to determine if there could have been a crime involved? All fires are notified to the police no matter what they are. Usually they will turn up, speak to the O/C about the incident and, unless a crime is jumping out at them or the O/C thinks there is something suspicious or if they are needed for traffic control purposes, will go away again. Obviously a death or injury regardless of how it is caused will attract greater attention from the  police who try and determine the cause and whether a criminal investigation is necessary.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Normally when arson is suspected, or where the has been a fire death the police will automatically launch an investigation. Fire Investigation Teams can be called out either by fire crews or by the police. SOCOs can also do fire investigation however it is normally deemed that a fire investigator is much more experienced and competent at fire scenes. Any suspicious fire is treated very seriously and methodically and meticulously investigated. Its true that fire investigation is one of the newest of all scenes of crime investigation disciplines but even still its been around for donkeys years.

[kurnal]

Brigades have a policy on fire investigation , and , since the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 they have a legal duty of investigation. Prior to that they would have a scale of investigation based on the minimal investigation by the crews as a default for all fires and to support the FDR1 form. Certain fires of interest- injury, size of loss, multiple seats of fire would attract a higher level of investigation by more qualified staff or teams, the scale of the investigation directly proportional to the loss, damage  or political interest .

[Cat]

Sorry, I had a feeling I hadn't made myself quite clear and I think due to my lack of experience I have taken some statements too literally.  Firstly I'm not suggesting that fires should be investigated to find out whether a crime has been committed or not, I think you have to suspect something first.  I'm also not trying to suggest that suspicious fires are not investigated properly.

Thank you Clevelandfire 3, I think you have managed to figure out what I was trying to ask when you mention it being the newest of investigation disciplines.

I take it Nearlythere that when you say:

Obviously a death or injury regardless of how it is caused will attract greater attention from the police who try and determine the cause and whether a criminal investigation is necessary.

That would be the reason why some fire investigators laughed when I was asked how often a fatal fire had a criminal investigation undertaken and I replied surely always and they said "in a perfect world maybe".  In some cases a criminal investigation is not appropriate?

[Mike Buckley]

Cat,

All fatal fires require a full investigation as they must be reported to the Coroner who will hold an inquest into the death. Although the Coroner's Officer who assists the Cononer is a member of the Police.

Obviously if, during the course of the investigation, a crime is suspected then the police are called and a joint investigation starts. Usually the Fire Investigator takes the lead, however frequently the Police give the press interviews, so guess who gets the PR.

Just to add to the fun, the Coroner has more clout than the rest of the Judicary.

[wee brian]

Coroners can ask all sorts of stuff and you have to answer them. But they don't have any real power beyond that.

FRAs have the power to carry out fire investigations not a duty.