USE OF INTERNET BULLETIN BOARDS BY CONSULTANTS

[colin todd]

I know its off topic, but for avoidance of doubt, no cats were harmed in the making of this hypothetical scenario, and, contrary to lay opinion, balanced dry food costing £3 a pound is an extremely well balanced and sufficient diet for cats, so long as they have constant access to water, while wet food rots their teeth.

[kurnal]

I think your frustration is misplaced Colin. If you had approached a retired NHS ambulance driver directly you would have known exactly the level of service he was likely to offer. You instead approached a large Organisation of National Standing  which did not live up to your expectations because it perhaps misrepresented itself by employing the same retired NHS ambulance driver that you would have spurned, but charged a handsome fee for the privilege. In justifying their business strategy they would say that once per year they will ensure all their associate staff are shown how to fit a contraceptive device, but in fact the trainer does not really understand the importance of fitting the device the right way out.  I could give a number of examples similar to your own in other industries - there are a number of organisations of considerable standing that on analysis and examination are all front and little substance.   

But I have little sympathy with you on this occasion. It is not like fire safety after all - in the case you describe there is no specific duty other than contract law and Caveat Emptor applies. (If you had taken my advice before awarding the contract for family planning services  I could have forwarned you - I have a crystal ball and can see it coming.)

So please dont use this experience to knock the retired ambulance driver for not doing his CPD. And is certainly not a reason to justify compulsory third party accreditation for the small fry practitioner. But it does expose the family planning industy for what it is. Thank goodness it is not fire safety we are talking about.

[kurnal]

I know its off topic, but for avoidance of doubt, no cats were harmed in the making of this hypothetical scenario, and, contrary to lay opinion, balanced dry food costing £3 a pound is an extremely well balanced and sufficient diet for cats, so long as they have constant access to water, while wet food rots their teeth.

Bur doesn't talisker rot the liver? Water is wholesome and healthy. You cant have freedom without choice. Sorry- promise its the last off topic post from me.

[Davo]

Colin

Not sure where I fit in to your scenario
We have Tech Indexes at vast cost so I have access to the BSs
However, as I struggle to get my head around them I have persuaded my boss to get a learned gent in to do our difficult premises


davo
(half agreeing but not of course in relation to the obvious brains on here )

[kurnal]

Davo as a government user the vast cost for your large organisation is likely to be a fraction of what the tech indexes  charge the private sector- even at a single user licence level. I find the only way is to subscribe to the BSI  to gain the discount and even then you have to be selective, buy what you need and no more. Thats when it gets really frustrating when the new version of the BS has very few significant changes from the previous version.   

[Davo]

Jokar

Do you not agree a little bit of banter keeps the guests (soon to be newbies) interested

davo

[Tom Sutton]

Jokar

Do you not agree a little bit of banter keeps the guests (soon to be newbies) interested

davo

Davo this is not banter, CT is making a serious point but he has to hide behind an analogy because he must find it difficult to talk straight and if he named anybody they would have the right of reply providing he lists all his concerns that person would surely reply in no uncertain terms.

[Davo]

TW

I am fully aware of CTs frustrations, I was however aiming specifically at Jokar's comments.
Yes I have noticed the phenominon, indeed have met a couple of them but the smell of BS gave them away.
I just think the same problem exists in all walks of life


davo, glass half empty.

[Thomas Brookes]

Tell me who is qualified enough, what qualification do they need, are we saying that you should never seek any advice at all because you should know everything.
Does passing an entrance exam for the IFE or being on someones fire risk assessors register, being a BAFE company etc etc.


I have recently been installing a fire alarm where I  saw a fire risk assessment from an retired cheif fire officer with 25-30 years experience (FIFireE grade) having his risk assessement  being rejected for being not suitable and sufficient, and to be fair it was very poor indeed he was even quoting BS5839-1-1988. The part I was involved with was the fire alarm where he had said six manual call points in the building would be suitable. This is a building that has conference and dinning facilities for 450 people, two seperate bars, a massive kitchen facility, two seperate cellar areas (opposite ends of the building), upstairs office suite and a loft space that you could play a 5 a side football match in. Now on paper he should be great for doing this risk assessment.

So back to my question who is a competent person because on paper the man above would be, got the qualifications, experience, but was very poor indeed.

[colin todd]

QED Tam. Thank you for so eloquently making my point for me. The ra was done by a retired GP who had not  done any CPD so did not even know the BS was revised in 2002. It is a special form of arrogance born out of believing ones own press too much as a Chief Officer and thinking that being a politician and being nice to local councillors gives you engineering capability.

Although he is old and past his prime, I dont mind peeps like the kurnal, as, by recognizing his own limitations, he is, by definition, competent.  I have problems with people who take punters' dosh and sell them bull**** plus the hope someone will tell them the answer.

For avoidance of doubt tw, those medics know who they are and there is no need for me to embarrass them, particularly those who actually do some good works handing out contraceptives to the needy, amongst whom I have some good friends of long standing. Sadly, they trade sometimes on giving the impression that they have the sole store of the worlds contraceptives.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Colin I can appreciate where you are coming from and in some cases you are correct. Alas I can't help feel you are being a little sceptical. I can't help feel you are talking about an indivdual, or organisation that has won a tender you were hoping for Colin rather than a generic problem in the industry. I'm not saying you are being bitter and you point is probably true in the case you speak of.

But for every bad risk assessor you come across there are ten good ones just trying to earn a decent living. The problems you talk about occur in every trade and industry and have done so since time immemorium. You say that by definition knowing your limits actually makes you competent. So very very true. Yet converseley there will be times we encounter a situation that is foreign to us, that can often be resolved by a paragraph or sentence from someone here that makes the penny drop and allows you to comepetently deal with the scenario.

I think firenet is a great forum. Its free, we have a good mix of people here, we know who are worth listening to and who aren't. I think we know who has hidden agendas, and those who are genuine. If someone thinks they know it all then they are grossly mistaken, but you should never stop asking questions as that all forms part of ongoing maintenance of knowledge and current standards, and learning new things.

As for banter being a problem I dont think its an issue. I have been on these forums a long long time. I only recently registered as a member but have logged on as a guest since 2006. There has always been banter, and its never put me or others of,. The latest dip in membership or hits to the site has been down i think to the new site not being listed in google searches.

Finally regarding the quality of posts. Kurnal says you can drum up a good idea of a persons competence by the quality of posts. Initially I agree but dont forget over the t'internet its not always that simple to judge the tone or interpretation something is meant in or how the poster sees the problem or question put forward. I have been guilty of that in the past. Rather than label people, or indeed pidgeon hole them I think we ought to recognise that people will have different opinions and often there are several ways of a chieving a solution with or without official guides or standards.

[colin todd]

Clevey, No you have missed my thrust, although I am gald to see we are broadly agreed. It is not specifically to do with a tender-that was ages ago. But now take a scroll through the last years posts. Some, as the kurnal said only want to bounce their ideas off people. For one man band thats invaluable. The concern I have is with those that have no ideas, but have taken a job on with no idea how to solve it and then go into reams on detail hoping others will give of their time and expertise to give them the answer. One particular individual had been doing so for ages without the knowledge of his bosses (who were concerned when it was brought to their attention). But he is one of several.

Solving serious fire safety issues by the Internet is positively dangerous, aside from the liability it can create for those who provide the solutions. Old Codgers who actually are quite capable getting help with their cpd or bouncing ideas of chums to make sure they are not getting isolated by working alone is a whole different ball game than getting your whole job done by others.

That was my point. Take it for whats its worth and discard it by all means.

[Thomas Brookes]

Unfortunatly Colin, this will carry on until the whole fire protection has some sort of legislation for fire risk assessors, Alarm installer, etc etc.
I personally I would love laws and regulations coming in that state you must have XY & Z to do a particular job or task, as we all would know what is required.

One of my current disapointments is the lack of any actual guidance for who is competent to install, maintain and commission  a fire Alarm & detection system.

Currently we have a very wooley description Quote "3.11"
competent person
person with the necessary training and experience, and with access to the requisite tools, equipment and
information, and capable of carrying out a defined task..
That could mean nearly anything, a for instants is that a NICEIC electricians fire alarm training involves half a day (and this half day includes emergency lighting) does that make them competent?.

I would like to see something more like AnnexE from BS5306

Annex E (informative)
Training of Competent Persons

The competent person’s training should include “on the job” experience and attendance of a training course run by a recognised body, which may be the extinguisher supplier or a qualified company. The competent person should attend for the length of time recommended by the training institution and, at the end of the course, pass an examination supervised by an independent body


There are three such independent examination bodies recognised by British Approvals for Fire Equipment: The British Fire Consortium (BFC), The Fire Extinguisher Trades Association (FETA) and the Independent Fire Engineering and Distributors Association (IFEDA)

The competent person should attend a refresher course at least every 3 years, which satisfies the following criteria.

a)   Minimum duration one day
b)   Covers new requirements, new classes of fires and new products in the market place, such as:

1)   British Standards
2)   Relevant UK statutory regulations
3)   Basic services
4)   Extended services
5)   Recharging
6)   Overhauling

c) Concludes with a written test of understanding for the competent person.


If there were set guidance of what is competent in all the different fields it would ensure safety for the customer and a more level playing field.
Lets face it how on earth can any of us possibly state that the building you are risk assessing has a suitable an sufficiant fire alarm system if we have people installing systems with half a days training or less!

[kurnal]

Although he is old and past his prime, I dont mind peeps like the kurnal, as, by recognizing his own limitations, he is, by definition, competent.  I have problems with people who take punters' dosh and sell them bull**** plus the hope someone will tell them the answer.

Colin I am underwhelmed by your uncharacteristic generousity of spirit. I must agree that I am getting past my prime now and would benefit from your advice, from your wide experience, of which anti aging preparations you have tried, so I know which ones dont work.

[jokar]

Davo,

Yes I do but there is a time and a place for it.  Some of the posters on here and those whop wish to pick up information like to read through a thread to find all the detail.  Sometimes, it all goes a bit woolly and the track gets lost and perhaps the whole thing then becomes a little pointless.