Is this allowed?

[jasper]

shouldn't the person undertaking the fire risk assessment have sufficient knowledge, training and experience to undertake the task?

[nearlythere]

shouldn't the person undertaking the fire risk assessment have sufficient knowledge, training and experience to undertake the task?

Seems not, according to the law, Jasper.

[Mushy]

Well I must admit here and now that if that is the opinion of the majority then I have had this wrong from the start...I was under the impression that the RP had to carry out a suitable and sufficient FRA (as per article 9)

 However under article 18 -Safety Assistance...the RP must appoint one or more competent persons to assist...

so if the RP appoints a Fire Risk Assessor to assist...that Fire Risk Assessor has to be competent...

..and paragraph (5) says that a competent person is regarded as competent if they have sufficient training and experience..

I'll go to the bottom of our stairs for getting that wrong

[CivvyFSO]

appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures

The preventive and protective measures are what come about after the assessment of risk has taken place.

[CivvyFSO]

And we need to remember that we are simply arguing a stupid technicality.

Regardless of the level of competency (or lack of) advocated by the wording, as you quite rightly point out, the risk assessment has to be suitable and sufficient regardless of who does it. That in itself infers that competence is required.

It is only semantics. (It's what we do best half of the time)

[novascot]

Go to:   http://www2.kirklees.gov.uk/news/press-release/bodytitle.asp?ID=1106

it appears that West Yorks F&RS have an agreement with a Local Council to "to ensure the fire protection roles of the two organisations are translated into practical arrangements. They agreed a shared objective of ‘Improving fire protection..." What exactly does that mean? Anybody from West yorks know?

This is the thin edge of a very big wedge that will be driven by F & RS throughout the Country. Fire Safety Consultants be afraid.
We always come back to the same problem. Who will audit FRA's in premises where the Fire Authority has given "practical" help & advice?

[kurnal]

In short it means that the Council are going to wriggle and squirm and temper their legal duties as an  employer by pleading poverty and the fire authority are going to let them continue by a series of protocols such as not issuing enforcement notices on council properties.

Been there done that so many times. The most graphic example was when social services were responsible for the Registered Homes Act 1984 and most brigades, as advisors to the social services, had to bow and scrape to the politicians and take flack if they dared to suggest improvements needed to be made. This led to chronic dual standards so bad that most council run homes had to be closed when the Care Standards Act came along.

It also happened in schools, and fire stations.

[Thomas Brookes]

It gets better if you do a credit check against the company, current credit rating of 3 out of 100 (Caution - Credit at your discretion) theres only one step lower and thats not trading anymore.
This one has a £2300 CCJ against it this year
Also the director  has two previously dissolved and non trading companies behind him one looks like it closed owing £150k.

And the F&R Service are endorsing these people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nearlythere]

I've got my preliminary online complaint to HF&RS done but everybody has to do it. Do it now people.

Not as much as an acknowledgment yet.

[Mushy]

appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures

The preventive and protective measures are what come about after the assessment of risk has taken place.

blimey I'm stuck here at the bottom of our stairs...

here's me thinking that the 'one or more competent persons
to assist him' was the Fire Risk Assessor

and the  'preventive and protective measures' was the Fire Risk Assessment itself

[Davo]

Civvy

Surely some preventative and protective measures are already/should be  in place courtesy of our old friend Doc B

The other stuff comes once you look at what has been added to the empty premises ie people, machinery, processes etc etc

Spot on though with the semantics



davo


if you did a RA on the idea of using this company would it come out 'intolerable'?

 

[nearlythere]

The other stuff comes once you look at what has been added to the empty premises ie people, machinery, processes etc etc
Spot on though with the semantics
davo

That would already have been taken care of under the employers duties under the H&S@Work Act. FRA should just be a rubber stamping exercise. These easy workplace ones are great to do are they not?

[kurnal]

I had an acknowlegement letter to my complaint this morning and they will respond in due course

[footieboy]

appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures

The preventive and protective measures are what come about after the assessment of risk has taken place.

blimey I'm stuck here at the bottom of our stairs...

here's me thinking that the 'one or more competent persons
to assist him' was the Fire Risk Assessor

and the  'preventive and protective measures' was the Fire Risk Assessment itself

The risk assessment identifies the GFP. The prevenative and protective measures are measures that have been identified by the risk assessment so therefore he has to do RA to get his  P&P and then he appoints competent persons to assist him with them.

Get a stair lift to get you up the stairs

[stevew]

A totally unacceptable course of action.  This from an authority who I have always found to 
go out of their way NOT to show any preference when it comes to fire safety advisor services. 
Their usual approach is 'look in the yellow pages'. 

A friend recently dropped in a letter received from HFRS in connection with this 'so called' survey.

I rang the contact number and during a very short conversation it became clear that the
person I was speaking to was not conversant with the fundimentals of the RRO.

How professional is that?   

I will be writing to complain.

PS Dealing a lot lately with another FA a short boat trip from HFRS.
Unusual approach and views with the 'nice to have' approach very apparent.  Clearly still have a strong
hold over those in their area when it comes to what they consider 'suitable and sufficient' although crafty
enough not to put any comment on a notice.  Frustrating!!!!!!