BS 9999 -Fire Safety Manual - Regulation 16B

[hammer1]

Am I the only one who regards the above as something that seems to be placed under the carpet.

At a recent IFSM fire conference in Leeds the subject was only touched on.

Regulation 16B and also Appendix G in the ADB requires prior to the building or major alteration to be signed off, there MUST be a fire manual in place with all information in regards to passive/active fire protection, evacuation design, fire plans etc etc.

Also BS9999 has more info about the fire safety manual and the requirement for it to be set up at the design stage etc etc.

For your complex buildings fire engineering/fire strategies will be in place.

All of the above provides the RP with the information to start and manage fire safety (use the evacuation design, take into account passive fire protection prior to alterations in the future etc etc) to a god standard. It also provides detail information for future FRA's.


Now here comes the major issue......

In most cases this is not being done, not even to a small scale, and even though building control should not sign off buildings until relevant info is in place, this is not being done. This is largely due to designers, building control not having a scooby about any of it. Also the client is unaware.

Why don't we have something along the principles of CDM Regs, where as with the H&S file, a Fire file is produced with both docs handed over to RP at end of project. As with notifiable and non-notifiable, where the fire design is complex and engineering solutions are used, all official parties are notified and work together instead of the old skool building control and Co to scared to accept new solutions and work together improving all parties knowledge and setting new boundaries for future projects.

I am involved in the construction side as well as fire and find it shocking that this is not a major gripe with you guys. This is the foundation of good fire safety management for a buildings life span is it not?

[kurnal]

Cor blimey yes yes and yes. But its why I chose my avatar- pigs might fly.

With my cynical head on in my experience its all a load of fairy tales and fine aspirations. It all sounds great in theory but just not happening in the real world at the sharp end.  New buildings completed and occupied long before there is any sign of detailed design drawings, O&M manuals, fire strategy etc. Did a new factory last week- just being occupied, some hairy scary stuff in there and some sophisticated kit to protect it and not a inkling of when any of the documentation will be provided. Nothing at all - but its up and running ( Though half the systems aren't interfaced to each other) And I get the feeling  the Building Inspector (approved) never left his desk.  

What do I do? tell the client he cant have his risk assessment till he gives me the documentation? Nope. get on with it as best you can.

The trouble is that most of these people who write dream up these schemes standards and legislation are so remote from the sharp end and the procedures so removed from custom and practice that nobody takes a blind bit of notice.  

rant over.

[hammer1]

hammer1

Reg 16B is the CDM Regs. Its already in place .
Yes, I have yet to see one also

davo

But alas, it has not the enforcing/regulatory back up as the CDM Regs have. It has no where near the same scale of information/guidance available as CDM Regs. Major problem is no one even knows about it, including the susposed enforcers

Fire Safety Order is for the fire safety management.

Lets have a Fire Safety order for the Design stage (include the construction stage, which again is not clear to most, even though it is a high risk environment). We have this have other industries, surely fire safety should as well.

It is not exactly rocket science, if you don't produce a H&S file at end of construction stage there will be a lot of people on your case, same principles for fire safety manuals.

Granted with O&M manuals and stuff, can take time to be included in the H&S files and sometimes the building is passed anyway due to pressures etc. BUT at least there is something in place, there is some procedure to collate all information and somewhere to go in the future during the buildings life span.

If we cannot even get the foundations correct then surely you/me have no argument on the management side of things.

Kurnal, should you not have been advising/educating your client from day one about collating such information. Detailed design plans should be submitted at the early stages of any construction. Fair comment about the O&M manuals, but we get this every day in the CDM Regs/construction side of things, but least there is something in place that can only benefit the management for fire safety of the building. CDM Co-Ordinators have the role of communicating between designers, clients and contractors and is responsible for collating such information. If you have a client, should you or someone like you be delegated a similar role?

If it works for CDM, why not fire safety?

What we need are clear available legislation on this area to give the client clear instructions and to incorporate Regulation 16B, ADB, BS9999 information into one simple to follow ACOPS.


Job done


Surely you guys agree something must be done, especially when we get good engineering solutions buffed by prescriptive old skool building control bodies that have a lack of knowledge and understanding.

I thought the long term aim was to move way from prescriptive ideals? If we cannot do it from the design stage, then all your arguments about the fire safety order and interpretation will never go away.


What is the point of conducting a FRA 1-2 years after a building life span to advise this and that is wrong, creating extra costs to issues that could of been dealt with at the beginning. You would not build a house and then 2 years later decide a kitchen is required?

[CivvyFSO]

Agreed completely. It has been mentioned before and IMO while we (The FRS) are consulting on a project at planning stage, our comments could or should make reference to this document.

If it is consistently ignored, like it seems to be, it will never be rectified.

[kurnal]

Hammer 1 where clients come to us at design stage we can and do advise them correctly. But most architects and BCOs have never heard of or cant be bothered to think about Regulation 16B (Many architects still specify BS5839 1988)Most of or clients only come to us on handover and occupation.Thats when we tell them with sadness how much money they have wasted and how much more still needs to be done.

[Wiz]

Dear Mr Pen Pusher,

There's no time for any faffing around with manuals and certificates.

I build real things that exist. Not just shuffle bits of paper.

Most importantly, I've got to get the building handed over to my customer and get paid!

Anyway, the building user will have mislaid any manuals and certificates within 3 months and swear blind that they've never seen them! What is the use of all that effort put in to provide them?

Yours in Site Office

Mr Betty Swollocks
(Main Contractor)

[CivvyFSO]

I think this is the exact problem Hammer1 is referring to. We have all resigned ourselves to the fact that it probably won't happen, so why even bother?

[hammer1]

Dear Mr Pen Pusher,

There's no time for any faffing around with manuals and certificates.

I build real things that exist. Not just shuffle bits of paper.

Most importantly, I've got to get the building handed over to my customer and get paid!

Anyway, the building user will have mislaid any manuals and certificates within 3 months and swear blind that they've never seen them! What is the use of all that effort put in to provide them?

Yours in Site Office

Mr Betty Swollocks
(Main Contractor)

If you had this excuse under CDM Regs you would not be working for very long


If you have a A/C system that cost £100,000, you dam sure will want the manual, certificate and even a gold star in case the thing is faulty/goes wrong. Secondly you want certificates to ensure the work is done to a standard that is required, building regulations are there for a reason and mainly for the safety of occupiers of the new owners. The insurance company will no doubt tell you where to go if all you have is joe bloggs builder saying 'trust me, its all ok, I build things'.

That attitude has certainly changed in the construction industry for medium-large scale projects. Common sense prevails, you may only need a few pages for simple premises or more for complex ones.

It is not about just certificates, manuals it is about good information to help the RP provide appropriate fire safety management of the building...........as I have said, not rocket science.


Oh, we in the construction industry use electronic paperwork, scanners for some of our H&S files, works a treat, try it sometime

[Davo]

Hammer1

Lets face it, its not just fire that can be missed by the BI who is overworked etc etc.

Also many H & S files are crap, saw one with a pile of data etc for a certain brand of fire door in it, pity we didn't have any of those doors in the build! Careless, sloppy etc or what!

I heard of one contractor where the client was holding back £60K as he hadn't got the manuals.
Contractor decided it would cost more to provide them so stuck two fingers up!



davo

[Wiz]

Dear Mr Pen Pusher,

There's no time for any faffing around with manuals and certificates.

I build real things that exist. Not just shuffle bits of paper.

Most importantly, I've got to get the building handed over to my customer and get paid!

Anyway, the building user will have mislaid any manuals and certificates within 3 months and swear blind that they've never seen them! What is the use of all that effort put in to provide them?

Yours in Site Office

Mr Betty Swollocks
(Main Contractor)

If you had this excuse under CDM Regs you would not be working for very long


If you have a A/C system that cost £100,000, you dam sure will want the manual, certificate and even a gold star in case the thing is faulty/goes wrong. Secondly you want certificates to ensure the work is done to a standard that is required, building regulations are there for a reason and mainly for the safety of occupiers of the new owners. The insurance company will no doubt tell you where to go if all you have is joe bloggs builder saying 'trust me, its all ok, I build things'.

That attitude has certainly changed in the construction industry for medium-large scale projects. Common sense prevails, you may only need a few pages for simple premises or more for complex ones.

It is not about just certificates, manuals it is about good information to help the RP provide appropriate fire safety management of the building...........as I have said, not rocket science.


Oh, we in the construction industry use electronic paperwork, scanners for some of our H&S files, works a treat, try it sometime

Listen 'ere Hammer1, I use your head on my sites to bang me nails in. So I know wot you are all about.

I understand and realise the purpose of manuals and certificates. I'm sure any right-minded builder would. They're a great idea. But until there is a bit of reasonable breathing space between 'finishing' the job (and getting paid) and the time before the building is actually used by the client and with all manuals and certificates in place, then there is always gonna be this problem.

The only way I can see around it, is for me to get the certificates written up before I start the job. Is that a good solution?

And because the manuals I'm required to provide (in triplicate), must include instructions on how the building user will do everything (including wiping his backside) I throw any old tosh in them towards the end of the job to make 'em look full up. I'd rather spend a month at the end of the job putting them together nicely using relevant information, but I'm not given the time.

It's all rush to Finish job, handover to client, get me dosh.

It's alright for the office wallahs to have all these great ideas but in practice it all takes time for all me trades to get all the info together. (This doesn't include the 100K AC unit for which there is any amount of info available, but the sparky can never find the user instructions, EN standards approval document, planned maintenance schedule, hazardous waste disposal instructions and commissioning certificate for the 75p pull switch he installed in the disabled WC!)

Gotta go, I can feel the morning's bacon buttie working its way through.

Yours in Portaloo

Mr Betty Swallocks
(Main Contractor)

[Allen Higginson]

Cor blimey yes yes and yes. But its why I chose my avatar- pigs might fly.

With my cynical head on in my experience its all a load of fairy tales and fine aspirations. It all sounds great in theory but just not happening in the real world at the sharp end.  New buildings completed and occupied long before there is any sign of detailed design drawings, O&M manuals, fire strategy etc. Did a new factory last week- just being occupied, some hairy scary stuff in there and some sophisticated kit to protect it and not a inkling of when any of the documentation will be provided. Nothing at all - but its up and running ( Though half the systems aren't interfaced to each other) And I get the feeling  the Building Inspector (approved) never left his desk.  

What do I do? tell the client he cant have his risk assessment till he gives me the documentation? Nope. get on with it as best you can.

The trouble is that most of these people who write dream up these schemes standards and legislation are so remote from the sharp end and the procedures so removed from custom and practice that nobody takes a blind bit of notice.  

rant over.

Have just finished a CDM fire install and it was new to me.It was also new to a lot of other guys that I know working for other majors that have projects that run over the notification hours etc.

[Wiz]

Hammer1

I heard of one contractor where the client was holding back £60K as he hadn't got the manuals.
Contractor decided it would cost more to provide them so stuck two fingers up!

davo

Dear davo,

I think that was one of my jobs! I calculated it would take a dozen people two months to get all the paperwork together but they wanted it all 'by the end of the week' otherwise they said they would keep the retention of 60K. I told 'em to keep it.

Their building still looks nice though, two years on.

Yours now in pub.

Mr Betty Swallocks
(main contractor)

[hammer1]

Dear Mr Pen Pusher,

There's no time for any faffing around with manuals and certificates.

I build real things that exist. Not just shuffle bits of paper.

Most importantly, I've got to get the building handed over to my customer and get paid!

Anyway, the building user will have mislaid any manuals and certificates within 3 months and swear blind that they've never seen them! What is the use of all that effort put in to provide them?

Yours in Site Office

Mr Betty Swollocks
(Main Contractor)

If you had this excuse under CDM Regs you would not be working for very long


If you have a A/C system that cost £100,000, you dam sure will want the manual, certificate and even a gold star in case the thing is faulty/goes wrong. Secondly you want certificates to ensure the work is done to a standard that is required, building regulations are there for a reason and mainly for the safety of occupiers of the new owners. The insurance company will no doubt tell you where to go if all you have is joe bloggs builder saying 'trust me, its all ok, I build things'.

That attitude has certainly changed in the construction industry for medium-large scale projects. Common sense prevails, you may only need a few pages for simple premises or more for complex ones.

It is not about just certificates, manuals it is about good information to help the RP provide appropriate fire safety management of the building...........as I have said, not rocket science.


Oh, we in the construction industry use electronic paperwork, scanners for some of our H&S files, works a treat, try it sometime

Listen 'ere Hammer1, I use your head on my sites to bang me nails in. So I know wot you are all about.

I understand and realise the purpose of manuals and certificates. I'm sure any right-minded builder would. They're a great idea. But until there is a bit of reasonable breathing space between 'finishing' the job (and getting paid) and the time before the building is actually used by the client and with all manuals and certificates in place, then there is always gonna be this problem.

The only way I can see around it, is for me to get the certificates written up before I start the job. Is that a good solution?

And because the manuals I'm required to provide (in triplicate), must include instructions on how the building user will do everything (including wiping his backside) I throw any old tosh in them towards the end of the job to make 'em look full up. I'd rather spend a month at the end of the job putting them together nicely using relevant information, but I'm not given the time.

It's all rush to Finish job, handover to client, get me dosh.

It's alright for the office wallahs to have all these great ideas but in practice it all takes time for all me trades to get all the info together. (This doesn't include the 100K AC unit for which there is any amount of info available, but the sparky can never find the user instructions, EN standards approval document, planned maintenance schedule, hazardous waste disposal instructions and commissioning certificate for the 75p pull switch he installed in the disabled WC!)

Gotta go, I can feel the morning's bacon buttie working its way through.

Yours in Portaloo

Mr Betty Swallocks
(Main Contractor)

 


Not sure what jobs you are involved with Mr (seems like smoky bandits general builders). O&M manuals can take time, but that is only part of the H&S file. Anyone requesting such info a week after construction completion is living in cuckoo land. On notifiable jobs under CDM you have the CDM Co-Ordinator to dump all relevant info on and it is them who needs to produce H&S file. I have people that can work on £1-10 million projects and can single handed produce such files, be it some info taking a lot longer than project completion (but it still gets there). Third party accreditation is a wonderful thing don't you think if used correctly and wisely.  

Either your pen pushers have not a clue or the arrangements with your clients need to be changed. No need to complicate things that can be simple.

Totally gone off topic here and think this should be in a construction forum

Fire safety is far more simpler than what me and Wiz have been waffling on about. The onus is on the design,client rather than the construction/cowboy outfit to fulfil............

I'm off back to the Ranch with no nails, hilti and filler....

[Davo]

Betty (I can call you that I hope?)

First of all, welcome to Firenet

I don't think it was one of yours, unless you work oop Norf

The problem is how Reg 16B appeared, snook in on an innocuous SI

davo

[Wiz]

davo, I can be found on most building projects around this country. Fearlessly fighting the insidious creepage of rules and regulations for no good reason, but embracing those that have merit whilst fighting the seeming impossibility of embracing them against the expectations of short contract times and low cost expected by my bosses and their clients.

I am part of a team. My colleagues are Mr R.S. Crack (Site foreman) and Mrs Mel E. Armpit (admin). Our arch enemy is Mr Job Sworth who represents the 'people who ain't gotta clue' and paid by yours and my tax contributions.

Yours, in cafe.

Mr Betty Swollocks
(Main Contractor)