Author Topic: Fire evac vs DDA  (Read 8588 times)

Offline dar1

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Fire evac vs DDA
« on: June 24, 2009, 04:22:13 PM »
Dear All,

Quick question to pose to you all please regarding Fire requirements v DDA...

The scenario:
- All floors of a multi-floored public building are accessible to wheelchair users
- Services cannot be restricted to the ground floor
- There is no lift usable for fire evacuation
- Evac chairs are available but they cannot accomodate all people (those with certain medical conditions, those too large to be transferred to or use evac chairs etc)

Do you:
a) Conclude that due to being unable to evacuate all those who might access the building, you must, for those few who cannot be accomodated using evac chairs, regretfully restrict their access to the ground floor only, (risking the wrath of the DDA) or:
b) Conclude that the likelihood of somebody using an upper floor during a fire who could not also be accomodated in an evac chair is unlikely and so allow unrestricted access (you take a risk based gamble)

My personal feeling is that b would make a mockery of having a managed evac plan and is almost akin to turning a blind eye in knowingly admitting those to upper floors who you could not evacuate.  However, is b not the solution that all premises with multiple floors and who rely solely on evac chairs, effectively operate upon?

I'd be interested in your thoughts please.

Regards

Midland Retty

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 04:51:20 PM »
Dar1

So long as the organisation concerned could show they have done everything reasonably practicable to allow access to mobility impaired / less abled persons, it should also be able to justify restricting access to certain areas on the grounds of safety
 
There is no point in enabling access for mobility impaired people to upper floors without having the means of providing egress for them in an emergency.

So if would cost a staggering ammount of money to convert the existing lift into a evacuation lift for example and the organisation has established that evac chairs are unsuitable for certain types of impairments it would be well within its rights to restrict access to the upper floors to people it can not effectively evacuate.








Offline DavidMc

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 10:27:45 PM »
There are quite a few comments on various pages on this forum relating to accessibility and the unquestionable 'consequential' danger which it brings.  This assumption displays to me that there is a significant need for some disability awareness training before someone gets into serious trouble.

The matter of the difference between what is needed to afford convenient access for people with restricted mobility and what can provide the ability to escape is much more complicated than is assumed by some posters on these pages.

Some of the people who earn fees from Expert Witness work must rub their hands in glee at the suggestions by some of the slapping of 'no go to wheelchair user' signs on buildings fitted with lifts.

Seriously guys, get some advice on this matter.

This post is meant as genuine advice to assist. I'm not having a cheap shot.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 11:51:24 PM »
So if would cost a staggering ammount of money to convert the existing lift into a evacuation lift for example and the organisation has established that evac chairs are unsuitable for certain types of impairments it would be well within its rights to restrict access to the upper floors to people it can not effectively evacuate.

Another option is closer to the 'option b'. Actually work out the chance of having someone with an impairment being on an upper floor at the same time that a fire occurs. I think that if it can be shown that it is improbable enough, it is not unreasonable to assume that an attending crew would assist providing you get the person (accompanied) into a place of relative safety with communication in place. Your local FRS might differ in opinion, but IMO restricting the use to non-disabled would be PR and PC suicide.

Common sense says that there are only so many scenarios you can cater for, we can all keep adding "but what if...." but eventually we head into the particularly unlikely, and beyond a certain level we simply have to accept the risk.

I would guess that you have much more chance of being sued by going for the restricting access theme than you have of being prosecuted for having a fire while a 'difficult case' was on an upper floor. But there is a great difference between being sued under the DDA and someone coming to harm in your premises because you didn't take reasonable measures to ensure their safety.


Offline afterburner

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 09:22:51 AM »
You may also be subject to enforcement procedures by the Fire Authority for not ensuring the safety of persons using the building.

The comments by DavidMc are clearly well thought out, but the two legislative requirements are leading to an impasse in some situations. I notice the use of the term 'convenient access' rather than 'reasonable adjustments'. However, David is right, this topic is not going away and we need to have answers and solutions available to employers / occupiers / service providers to encompass an acceptable fire safety strategy for all.

The (perhaps oversimplistic) take I have on this is that if we need several exit routes for 'able bodied' evacuees, we need the same provision (or perhaps even more) for persons with special needs regarding mobility. This leads to the consideration of where do evacuation rated lifts go, or indeed temporary waiting areas equipped with evacuation aids? As for training to use the evacuation aids and downstream maintenance, that is a further consideration we need to recognise whilst advising any solution.

With regard to Civvy's observation that we have to accept the risk that concept is well understood. What about the scenario where a person with special needs regarding mobility does not accept your risk and sues you for not ensuring their safety? is this not discrimination? (one person's safety is ensured whilst another person's is not?)   

Offline Wiz

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 10:22:21 AM »
There are quite a few comments on various pages on this forum relating to accessibility and the unquestionable 'consequential' danger which it brings.  This assumption displays to me that there is a significant need for some disability awareness training before someone gets into serious trouble.

The matter of the difference between what is needed to afford convenient access for people with restricted mobility and what can provide the ability to escape is much more complicated than is assumed by some posters on these pages.

Some of the people who earn fees from Expert Witness work must rub their hands in glee at the suggestions by some of the slapping of 'no go to wheelchair user' signs on buildings fitted with lifts.

Seriously guys, get some advice on this matter.

This post is meant as genuine advice to assist. I'm not having a cheap shot.

Because the DDA is, typically of modern laws, widely open to interpretation there will always be widely differing views of how it is actually implemented.

You cannot say restricting some access to disabled persons due to insurmountable (even in respect of cost) safety considerations is always wrong.

Each case has to be considered on its merits, probably in a court of law, and 'expert witnesses' do not only work on the side of the DDA huggers.

Hopefully, commonsense will prevail over time, and we will be able to afford access and facilities for every person with any sort of disability wherever it is 'reasonably' possible. If we can't, the country will go bust.

However, I suspect, that as always, the legal profession will use the wide interpretaion of what should be a straightforward law to cloud the issues as much as possible, whilst earning royally from it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:26:14 AM by Wiz »

Midland Retty

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 10:44:02 AM »
I would guess that you have much more chance of being sued by going for the restricting access theme than you have of being prosecuted for having a fire while a 'difficult case' was on an upper floor. But there is a great difference between being sued under the DDA and someone coming to harm in your premises because you didn't take reasonable measures to ensure their safety.

I think we have to get out of the mindset of "getting sued" and look at the situation practically and sensibly.

I'll expand on my original answer.

Lets assume the premises provides a certain service to members of the public above ground floor level which isn't accessible to persons with mobility impairments. Clearly this is unacceptable.

The building is old and it would be difficult to modify the existing lift to an evacaution lift without substantial and disporportionate cost. It would also be too expensive to install a brand new lift.

Evac chairs can be used and may be suitable for some mobiltiy impaired people, but not all. To buy all manner of different evacuation aids simply on the off chance one of them will suit an individual would be costly and unreasonable. Buying aids which would suit the vast majority of impaired persons isn't unreasonable.

So what do you do about it?

Firstly can the services being provided on the upper floors be located to ground floor level? If that is not practicable can those services be replicated on a smaller scale at ground floor level?.

Could it be that a mobility impaired persons presses a bell  / phones and someone comes to their attention on the ground floor? (This is what happenes in a lot of banks)

There are always solutions which are "reasonably practicable" to implement.

On the flip side if you employ a less abled person(s),  then you will know much more about those individuals circumstances and thus be able to tailor an evacuation plan to suit (PEEP) and if needs be buy the right evacuation aid to assit them.

One thing you must not rely on is fire crews evacuating people for you. The brigade's function is to undertake rescue, and then to fight fire. They can not effectively do this if their resources are tied up evacuating people, particularly in areas covered by the RDS fire crews where resources will already be tight, and back up appliances may take time to arrive.


As someone already pointed out you need to balance access with safety, the consequences of being prosecuted by the fire authority are more severe potentially than getting sued

I slightly disagree with Davidmc's comments. They may hold true to an extent, but there is a myth that exists that an organisation will be sued to the hilt if they dont provide x,y,z .  

Keep in mind the statement "reasonably practicable".  The law requires you to do everything "reasonably practical" to allow access to less abled persons. So long as you have demonstrated that you have done everything reasonably practical then you can not be left open to legal action. But that does not mean you have to spend millions of pounds upgrading a builidng, nor indeed put people at risk simply because a solution can't be found.


Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 10:49:06 AM »
What about the scenario where a person with special needs regarding mobility does not accept your risk and sues you for not ensuring their safety? is this not discrimination? (one person's safety is ensured whilst another person's is not?)

Then their claim will fall flat on its face if you have made what can be considered to be reasonable adjustments.

Midland Retty

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 10:55:34 AM »
What about the scenario where a person with special needs regarding mobility does not accept your risk and sues you for not ensuring their safety? is this not discrimination? (one person's safety is ensured whilst another person's is not?)

Then their claim will fall flat on its face if you have made what can be considered to be reasonable adjustments.

Exactly, and that is the whole thrust of the argument - reasonable adjustments, what is  " reasonably practical"

Im not advocating that organisations should restrict access for mobility impaired persons on the grounds of safety reaons  simply because it makes their life easier and means they do not have to make any adjustments, but neither do I advocate that people let unsafe practices go on through "fear" of being sued by a less abled person.

Offline DavidMc

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 10:54:11 PM »
With respect Guys you have not picked up on the main point of my post.

Safety always overrides access rights - no contest, and you should never be reluctant to stand firm on that.  It is the 'blanket ban' mindset that I worry about.    

There seems to be an automatic assumption that if a person accesses a building using a wheelchair then they must also leave using a wheelchair even in an emergency.

Once that mindset is in place there follows the discussion of access rights vs the 'inevitable safety risk' associated with wheelchair users.

It leads to a failure to allow differentiation between what is required for convenient access to and safe exit from the building.

As I have previously said this is a complex area as this linkage is of course true for some wheelchair users but certainly not all.  It is this spectrum of capability that is the source of personal grievance when it comes to blanket bans imposed "in the interests" of fire safety.

Let me end this 'tome' (hope it is useful and supportive to what we all aim for) by asking a question.  There is a three storey restaurant.  On the top floor is the winner of the London Marathon Wheelchair Race and my ambulant granny who has taken 15 minutes to get up the stairs.

The fire alarm sounds, no evac lifts, no evac chairs .... who gets out first?  

« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 06:21:32 AM by DavidMc »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 09:11:33 AM »
With respect Davidmc I don't think you have realised that many posters on this forum are actually fully aware of the points you raised.

There has been much discussion on these pages over the years regarding the 'rights' afforded by the DDA and the problems in providing them, and particularly where fire safety comes into the equation . Maybe because it has been discussed in depth previously that some postings on new topics assume that everyone has seen the previous topics

I think the point about the DDA is the word 'reasonable' and its interpretation.

I think that many posters on this forum do not accept that the DDA overides everything else and they believe there can be many reasons, not least of all fire safety, that can result in 'facilities' rightly being denied to some disabled persons and including where the cost in providing them is 'unreasonable'.

In answer to your question I believe that your slow walking granny will escape first because I understand that she is also the world abseiling champion and has all her kit with her.

I'm not trying to be flippant but you could argue these sort of points to kingdom come!

Until the DDA is rewritten to state that equal access and facilities have to be provided no matter the cost and implications and the word reasonable is deleted, then there is always the chance of there being some sort of legal restriction to disabled people's 'rights' to the access and facilities enjoyed by non-disabled persons in some circumstances.


Offline hammer1

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2009, 10:04:28 AM »
With respect Guys you have not picked up on the main point of my post.

Safety always overrides access rights - no contest, and you should never be reluctant to stand firm on that.  It is the 'blanket ban' mindset that I worry about.    

There seems to be an automatic assumption that if a person accesses a building using a wheelchair then they must also leave using a wheelchair even in an emergency.

Once that mindset is in place there follows the discussion of access rights vs the 'inevitable safety risk' associated with wheelchair users.

It leads to a failure to allow differentiation between what is required for convenient access to and safe exit from the building.

As I have previously said this is a complex area as this linkage is of course true for some wheelchair users but certainly not all.  It is this spectrum of capability that is the source of personal grievance when it comes to blanket bans imposed "in the interests" of fire safety.

Let me end this 'tome' (hope it is useful and supportive to what we all aim for) by asking a question.  There is a three storey restaurant.  On the top floor is the winner of the London Marathon Wheelchair Race and my ambulant granny who has taken 15 minutes to get up the stairs.

The fire alarm sounds, no evac lifts, no evac chairs .... who gets out first?  



Let me reply


With good passive fire protection and automatic early warning fire system, the means of escape should have 30 mins protection, also the place may have various alternative means of escape .i.e external fire escape. With the help of trained staff and a good fire emergency plan in place.


Job done - all out safe.

Offline TickityBoo

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2009, 10:19:58 AM »
While most premises will be able to accommodate mobility impaired persons by making reasonable adjustments and/or limiting access to ground floor level by providing the same service on that level, what about those who feel their hands are tied?

For example, is a small guest house owner within his rights to refuse entry to mobility impaired persons on the basis that the public bedrooms are upstairs and he does not have the staff/training/equipment to evacuate a wheelchair user?  If the owner discusses evacuation with the guest, it may transpire that the person would be happy to shuffle down stairs - no equipment required.  But what about the guest who needs to be lifted down the stair?  It would not be reasonable to provide an evac lift and even evac chairs are very expensive and require staff training. Because of the layout, no public bedrooms can be accommodated on the ground floor.  Wondering where the owner stands re. the DDA if entry is refused on this basis.

Midland Retty

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 01:19:06 PM »
Again it comes down to what ever is "reasonably practicable"


Offline Phoenix

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Re: Fire evac vs DDA
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 03:05:24 PM »

Do you:
a) Conclude that due to being unable to evacuate all those who might access the building, you must, for those few who cannot be accomodated using evac chairs, regretfully restrict their access to the ground floor only, (risking the wrath of the DDA) or:
b) Conclude that the likelihood of somebody using an upper floor during a fire who could not also be accomodated in an evac chair is unlikely and so allow unrestricted access (you take a risk based gamble)

My personal feeling is that b would make a mockery of having a managed evac plan and is almost akin to turning a blind eye in knowingly admitting those to upper floors who you could not evacuate.


Hmmm...


However, is b not the solution that all premises with multiple floors and who rely solely on evac chairs, effectively operate upon?


....Maybe.....but you're not allowed to say it out loud.