7273 and location of detectors

[David Rooney]

Wiz if you use the same 240v supply as the panel and use the salamander kit wire a relay perm energised on fault and fire thats the job done.
In the scheme of things you and I know that don't help if you are a distance from the panel (which is 99.9% of the time).
So unless the above applies in relation to the panel you cant do no more than that.
I will use a judgement , and I am afraid thats all we can do.
In relation to doors closing injuring old people , I have just stopped one property whose door mags all 40 of them (not overheads) being replaced as they don't close , by a cowboy firm who rode into town.
As the premises don't close them (they are linked to the panel for closure , in fire don't you know - h&s officer). It seems they still are magnetised when called to close , a quick rub with sandpaper and a time clock to close when all the old dears are in bed was called for.
Whats worse doors that are retained and don't close or the risk it may shut on someone , well its 11.30 pm closure on this job , and if they are still coming back from the pub then at that hour , I shall get my kids to book me in to that home 

Hmmm..... and how does that work when you disable a detector ?

[Allen Higginson]

Assuming that your door signal is normally closed then if you use the Advanced with an Apollo 3 Channel I/O (and it's only hypothetical!!) you could tie the relay output to activate on any fire,any fault and any disablement.You could then use a closed circuit input through a small relay permanently energized by the loop that holds the contact in the required state as long as the switch (ie - the loop energized relay) is closed (ie - total panel power or loop failure = door shutting).
You would have to series the door release signal through the N/C of relay 1 (tied to the events) and the N/O of relay 2 (tied to the loop powered N/C input making it closed while power is on the loop.
If you cant assign an input to be closed going open (as opposed to the norm of open going closed) on the above you can do it with other manufacturers gear (ours for one).

[David Rooney]

Assuming that your door signal is normally closed then if you use the Advanced with an Apollo 3 Channel I/O (and it's only hypothetical!!) you could tie the relay output to activate on any fire,any fault and any disablement.You could then use a closed circuit input through a small relay permanently energized by the loop that holds the contact in the required state as long as the switch (ie - the loop energized relay) is closed (ie - total panel power or loop failure = door shutting).
You would have to series the door release signal through the N/C of relay 1 (tied to the events) and the N/O of relay 2 (tied to the loop powered N/C input making it closed while power is on the loop.
If you cant assign an input to be closed going open (as opposed to the norm of open going closed) on the above you can do it with other manufacturers gear (ours for one).

Quiet day in the office ??!!

Apollo can't monitor a NC going open... as we found when trying to monitor a low pressure switch on a Fike system...

[Wiz]

Assuming that your door signal is normally closed then if you use the Advanced with an Apollo 3 Channel I/O (and it's only hypothetical!!) you could tie the relay output to activate on any fire,any fault and any disablement.You could then use a closed circuit input through a small relay permanently energized by the loop that holds the contact in the required state as long as the switch (ie - the loop energized relay) is closed (ie - total panel power or loop failure = door shutting).
You would have to series the door release signal through the N/C of relay 1 (tied to the events) and the N/O of relay 2 (tied to the loop powered N/C input making it closed while power is on the loop.
If you cant assign an input to be closed going open (as opposed to the norm of open going closed) on the above you can do it with other manufacturers gear (ours for one).

Good try Buzz, but no cigar, I think. Sorry. 

My understanding of the BS (possibly flawed, I'll admit because I can't say I fully understand it) would require the Apollo I/O to be powered on in it's standby state with NC contacts. Which it isn't. I appreciate that your second relay (being loop powered) would drop out on loss of loop power but a strict adherance to the recommendations would reveal this to be insufficient because the I/O is not strictly fail-safe.

Hochiki do a powered I/O, so that might work in your scenario. But I still don't think it is enough.

I think that the only type of I/O that would really meet the BS is one that is powered in it's standby state and is kept in that condition by a data signal regularly being sent to it by the panel. Sort of an O.K. signal. As long as the I/O saw this O.K. signal it would remain in the standby condition. Any loss of the signal would cause the I/O to fail safe. As far as I know no-one does something like this yet.

You appear to be saying that an Advanced panel can be configured to operate an output unit for any of the fault conditions mentioned in my previous post. Can you confirm this because it will be of interest to those who use panels that can't do this. However, I still don't think it is enough based on my comments in the previous paragraph.

[Wiz]

Assuming that your door signal is normally closed then if you use the Advanced with an Apollo 3 Channel I/O (and it's only hypothetical!!) you could tie the relay output to activate on any fire,any fault and any disablement.You could then use a closed circuit input through a small relay permanently energized by the loop that holds the contact in the required state as long as the switch (ie - the loop energized relay) is closed (ie - total panel power or loop failure = door shutting).
You would have to series the door release signal through the N/C of relay 1 (tied to the events) and the N/O of relay 2 (tied to the loop powered N/C input making it closed while power is on the loop.
If you cant assign an input to be closed going open (as opposed to the norm of open going closed) on the above you can do it with other manufacturers gear (ours for one).

Quiet day in the office ??!!

Apollo can't monitor a NC going open... as we found when trying to monitor a low pressure switch on a Fike system...

David, did you think about using a switch monitor and the fault generated when you open circuit the EOL monitoring? Surely this would work if your panel C&E can be programmed to accept a fault input to give whatever signal you required?

[David Rooney]

Assuming that your door signal is normally closed then if you use the Advanced with an Apollo 3 Channel I/O (and it's only hypothetical!!) you could tie the relay output to activate on any fire,any fault and any disablement.You could then use a closed circuit input through a small relay permanently energized by the loop that holds the contact in the required state as long as the switch (ie - the loop energized relay) is closed (ie - total panel power or loop failure = door shutting).
You would have to series the door release signal through the N/C of relay 1 (tied to the events) and the N/O of relay 2 (tied to the loop powered N/C input making it closed while power is on the loop.
If you cant assign an input to be closed going open (as opposed to the norm of open going closed) on the above you can do it with other manufacturers gear (ours for one).

Quiet day in the office ??!!

Apollo can't monitor a NC going open... as we found when trying to monitor a low pressure switch on a Fike system...

David, did you think about using a switch monitor and the fault generated when you open circuit the EOL monitoring? Surely this would work if your panel C&E can be programmed to accept a fault input to give whatever signal you required?

No we were using the Syncro XT analogue extinguishing system (XP95 propocol) - the system has pre programmed cause and effects for predetermined inputs depending whethere you are in the extinguishant area or not.. so a "low pressure input" would cause sounders to pulse within the area and various relays to change state and lights and whistles on the panel. Opening up the EOL just causes a general fault on that input. We could have messed around feeding outputs into inputs etc but it was a bit messy ...

[David Rooney]

But it does look impressive....

We've just got the latest software for use with the Vega kit etc... I'll have to have a play.

[Wiz]

Quote from previous post:

Colin Todd states that one manufacturer does already produce an I/O unit that complies with the recommendations but doesn't mention which it is. Does anyone else know which one this is? I would have thought this manufacturer would be swamping the trade press with advertisiments about being the only company with such a product. I haven't seen anything, have you?
I thought Colin may be talking about the Hochiki powered I/O unit, but unless I've misunderstood things, using this unit will provide the fail-safe requirement of fail-safe when losing power to the loop,  but it still won't automatically fail-safe if there are some of the faults elsewhere on the system that 7273  recommends. Can anyone else confirm this?

Any takers in answering the above questions yet?

[Allen Higginson]

Is the problem here that we are looking at I/O's on the fire alarm system that signals the door release that meet this,as opposed to an door closer interface that take signal's from the fire alarm?
http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=7572&viewcomment=1

[GregC]

Glad you asked that question Buzz, Its what I have been wondering but not thought of the right way of asking

[David Rooney]

Is the problem here that we are looking at I/O's on the fire alarm system that signals the door release that meet this,as opposed to an door closer interface that take signal's from the fire alarm?
http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=7572&viewcomment=1

This is similar to the Salamander (except I think the Sal is better)... at the end of the day both systems are going to react on the opening or closing of a relay or relays controlled by the fire panel.

If you look at the list  provided by Wiz I would think that all the faults would cause a "general fault" relay within your CIE to switch over... with the exception possibly of a software fault or the disablement of a device (quite what the power supply voltage has got to do with anything i'm not sure)

120s - Open or short circuit
3 or 60s - Reduction of power supply voltage
32m - Failure of normal supply
17m - Failure of standby supply
120s - Open or short circuit on mcp or detector circuit
120s - Removal of any mcp or detector designed to be detachable
120s - Earth fault
120s - Fuse failure
120s - Software fault
120s - Disablement
120s - Failure of radio activated systems

If your gen fault relay also switches over on software/disablement then happy days providing you run a cable from the CIE to relays within the door psu...

The problem as far as I can see is that at the moment we can't use an I/O unit on the loop to switch a door psu because it either cannot be programmed to react to all the necessary fault conditions, or won't change state in the event the loop stops transmitting data or voltage or both....

So we are back to using the panel relay (if it responds to all the conditions listed) and running more cables or using the panel relay (if it responds to all the conditions listed) and one of the radio tx systems.

.... I think.... !

[Wiz]

Is the problem here that we are looking at I/O's on the fire alarm system that signals the door release that meet this,as opposed to an door closer interface that take signal's from the fire alarm?
http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=7572&viewcomment=1

The problem is actually both ways.

We've already discussed the issues with loop-powered I/O's and this appears to be an impossible solution to resolve with existing equipment (I'm still waiting for someone to identify the supposed version that evidently fully complies)

There are still issues even with direct connection to a control panel. If the panel has an output or outputs that operate on all the the required conditions then it shouldn't be a problem, But do most panels have these outputs for all the conditions and in the times required?

I read the info on the link you provided and I believe it to be a bit unclear about the issue of the control panel. It almost reads as if the interface device does all the monitoring of the 7273 conditions but how can it? These conditions are normally monitored by the fire alarm control panel.

I telephoned the manufacturers and their answers were all a bit confusing and included the following explanations:

a) By saying their interface monitors 12 conditions the interface is only actually looking for a single fault condition from a control panel relating to any or all of the 7273 conditions.

b) If the control panel only monitors say, 3 of the required conditions, then it is only these 3 conditions that the interface will operate to. (there was no understandable reply to how this complies with BS)

c) The requirements for BS7273 don't relate to the fire alarm system but just the doors etc. system. The fire alarm system is covered instead by BS5839.

I was somewhat confused by these answers, and said so. They have now promised to get their top man to call me sometime in the future. I'll let you know what they say, if and when it happens.

[Wiz]

Is the problem here that we are looking at I/O's on the fire alarm system that signals the door release that meet this,as opposed to an door closer interface that take signal's from the fire alarm?
http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=7572&viewcomment=1

This is similar to the Salamander (except I think the Sal is better)... at the end of the day both systems are going to react on the opening or closing of a relay or relays controlled by the fire panel.

If you look at the list  provided by Wiz I would think that all the faults would cause a "general fault" relay within your CIE to switch over... with the exception possibly of a software fault or the disablement of a device (quite what the power supply voltage has got to do with anything i'm not sure)

120s - Open or short circuit
3 or 60s - Reduction of power supply voltage
32m - Failure of normal supply
17m - Failure of standby supply
120s - Open or short circuit on mcp or detector circuit
120s - Removal of any mcp or detector designed to be detachable
120s - Earth fault
120s - Fuse failure
120s - Software fault
120s - Disablement
120s - Failure of radio activated systems

If your gen fault relay also switches over on software/disablement then happy days providing you run a cable from the CIE to relays within the door psu...

The problem as far as I can see is that at the moment we can't use an I/O unit on the loop to switch a door psu because it either cannot be programmed to react to all the necessary fault conditions, or won't change state in the event the loop stops transmitting data or voltage or both....

So we are back to using the panel relay (if it responds to all the conditions listed) and running more cables or using the panel relay (if it responds to all the conditions listed) and one of the radio tx systems.

.... I think.... !

David, I think you are seeing the problems exactly as I see them.

I'd be quite happy if someone proved I was misunderstanding the BS or to highlight all equipment that fully complies with the BS and how, because then it would make life much simpler for those of us who care in trying to comply with BS7273-4

[Allen Higginson]

Is the problem here that we are looking at I/O's on the fire alarm system that signals the door release that meet this,as opposed to an door closer interface that take signal's from the fire alarm?
http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=7572&viewcomment=1

The problem is actually both ways.

We've already discussed the issues with loop-powered I/O's and this appears to be an impossible solution to resolve with existing equipment (I'm still waiting for someone to identify the supposed version that evidently fully complies)

There are still issues even with direct connection to a control panel. If the panel has an output or outputs that operate on all the the required conditions then it shouldn't be a problem, But do most panels have these outputs for all the conditions and in the times required?

I read the info on the link you provided and I believe it to be a bit unclear about the issue of the control panel. It almost reads as if the interface device does all the monitoring of the 7273 conditions but how can it? These conditions are normally monitored by the fire alarm control panel.

I telephoned the manufacturers and their answers were all a bit confusing and included the following explanations:

a) By saying their interface monitors 12 conditions the interface is only actually looking for a single fault condition from a control panel relating to any or all of the 7273 conditions.

b) If the control panel only monitors say, 3 of the required conditions, then it is only these 3 conditions that the interface will operate to. (there was no understandable reply to how this complies with BS)

c) The requirements for BS7273 don't relate to the fire alarm system but just the doors etc. system. The fire alarm system is covered instead by BS5839.

I was somewhat confused by these answers, and said so. They have now promised to get their top man to call me sometime in the future. I'll let you know what they say, if and when it happens.

I read it as the door must close in the event of any of the 12 conditions (which this unit could do).
However,in the event of software failure is a bit of a sticky one unless it is a totally self intelligent processor based I/O!!
No I/O is infallible as I have had plenty that sit quite happy until called for and the actual relay fails - how do you compensate for that I ask??

[David Rooney]

I'm going down the pub to think about it.....  I'll let you know..!!