Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts

[nearlythere]

Similarly we maintain a private "elite" block of flats in camden that has a "smoke ventillation system" on each floor (5 floors) ie. mains powered detector with relay base in the lift lobby on each floor, controlling louvres in the lobby that open to air.
Each detector is completely standalone and isolated from the other detectors.
The "residents" have requested a FD&A system in the common parts - sounders in flats + heat detector - etc
Comments ??

And why not if it makes them happier.

[jokar]

David, do they really want to evacuate every time an alarm goes of?  and if they do and it is a real fire are the staircases large enough to take the capacity of the whole population of the building and to allow firefighters access from the access level and from thwir bridgehead position.

[nearlythere]

David, do they really want to evacuate every time an alarm goes of?  and if they do and it is a real fire are the staircases large enough to take the capacity of the whole population of the building and to allow firefighters access from the access level and from thwir bridgehead position.

I really think jokar that it would be difficult to persuade the residents to remain in their flats where the F&RS say they are safe more especially now after the London incident.
The alarm is their choice so let them have it.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!

Havent we got ourselves into a tizzy. We dont even know what happened in London yet and here we all are spurting off in all directions declaring that compartmentation is useless, that no one ever does their jobs properly to check the integrity of fire resistance and the whole thing goes to rat poo poo.

Of course compartmentation gets breached in some cases, Im a realist Nearlythere I know what goes on. But because Im a realist I also know a full evacuation policy will never work either

And NT go ahead put in a common fire alarm system I truly understand your logic IF the compartmentation is crap I really really do, but alas Im afraid the system will get vandalised, Im afraid the alarm will be going off every five minutes causing complaceny amongst residents who will be sick and tired of the alarm activating and wont move when there is actually a genuine emergency.

Can we all just slow down a bit take a chill pill and await the findings of the fire investigators before we start whining on about this that and the other. Midland Retty pointed out we won't know what's happened til the investigation is complete and looking at the footage of this horrible blaze I have my own opinions on what may have occurred. But I wasn't there, you weren't there. The experts will determine the cause, lets await their findings before going off on one and declaring the world has fallen of its axis and that tower blocks are the most unsafe things in the world.

[StuartH]

Defend in place is an established and accepted principal with regards to residents. However, what about the persons who work within common areas. For example, one premises that I am aware of has a team of cleaners working in the staircase and corridors on a daily basis. All of us who have been operational would have attended a fire in a common area of this type of premises at sometime in our career (normally rubbish or a piece of furniture dragged in from outside). The persons working within common areas do not normally have access to flats so Defend in Place is NOT an option for them. How are they warned of a fire in a common area? How about visitors who could be present in a common area? How have you all addressed this within your risk assessments?

[CivvyFSO]

One of the best breakdowns of the timeline of the incident so far:

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/daily-news/lakanal-house-new-evidence-reveals-how-fatal-fire-spread/5204724.article

There are also links on the article showing the layout of the flats.

[nearlythere]

And NT go ahead put in a common fire alarm system I truly understand your logic IF the compartmentation is crap I really really do, but alas Im afraid the system will get vandalised.

CF3. Flats get vandalised. Apartments do not.

I'm afraid that the outcome of the enquiry will have little effect on how the residents see the issue. Fact is, regardless of how it happened, 6 persons perished in a fire and that, to flat/apartment occupiers, is all that matters.

[Big T]

That may be true, but no-one died in a communal area. They died in their flats. Due to a fire in that flat! Part 6 system please!

Smoke vents operated by SD is the only type of communal system that should be installed.

The mere thought of you poor sods having to manage a communal fire alarm system in a block of flats or apartments is laughable.

In fact, install one with my blessing and I await your post in 10 weeks time asking for ways in which to minimise fire alarm activations.

What do you do when it goes off?

Auto dialler to brigade? Auto Dialler to call center? Either way they are same thing because the call centre will call the fire service straight away.

Whos going to respond once it goes off? Concierge? Doubt you have one. Resident? Doubt it. Fire alarm contractor? 2 hour call out. Fire service? After 3 activations you will be looking at reduction programmes.

What do you want the communal system to do? get everyone out? They WONT LEAVE. I guarantee it! Defend in place? Why have an alarm? The reason you have a communal system in a sheltered housing block is to get the brigade there early. You don't need to do that in normal blocks.

You have an alarm you need to then do fire drills! You need to do a weekly fire alarm test! Whos going to do that? Concierge? you dont have one!

[Midland Retty]

I totally agree Big T

YOu should protect the flat with AFD rather than look at a communal system.

[nearlythere]

Big T.
The adequacy of the compartmentation is questionable and impossible to confirm. You don't believe there should be a common AFD system. What I don't want in 10 weeks is to see a post reporting deaths in a block of flats without AFD and having dodgy compartmentation.
You said "they died in their flats" (plural). Why would that be if the block was built with compartmentation?

[Big T]

Its not as simple as that Nearlythere though is it.

If AFD was installed communally nothing would have changed, the outcome would be identicle. Apart from the fact that potentially MORE people would have evacuated their flats who in this instance stayed where they were in a compartment that was unnafected by the fire.

Regardless of compartmentation, communal AFD is not the solution. Improving Compartmentation or smoke ventilation / extraction is.

Fire spread through corridoors in this instance has not been cause by a sparky knocking a brick out of an electrical riser. Its been caused by inadequately maintained fire doors, external fire spread or communal waste / wall covering that has encouraged fire and smoke spread. But this is still specualtion and flimflam.

A Fire risk assessment will identify obvious breaches of compartmentation and will ensure that it is rectified by installing intumescent foam or mastic or fire rated board in areas where there are compartment breaches.

The RRO covers the communal areas. So the assessor would look in electrical cupboards, corridoors, bin chute areas etc. Of course they aren't going to start knocking walls down or smashing ceilings out to see whats beyond it and in addition aren't going to gain access to individual flats.

What you are advocating is mitigating poor compartmentation by installing AFD. We know from experience that it was inherantly useless in situations like this and virtually impossible to manage.

The correct mitigation is to improve compartmentation ensure a part 6 system in each flat to provide early warning of smoke in a dwelling (not present in Lakanal), not install communal AFD.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Sorry nearlythere but you are way off on this one. A communal fire alarm system is not whats required.

Tell me whay you cant proove the fire resistance and compartmentation. I accept getting access to all flats, some of which will house very unhelpful residents isn't easy, but alas thats exactly what needs to be done. What areas are you aware of in the flats may be compromised?

How many fire deaths in flats that you know of have there been? I can tell you how many I know of.... 8 - six of which occurred last weekend.

I ask again that we all calm down until we get the report from the disaster in London

[Big T]

Information I received yesterday. The letter I received was from the

Lakanal House was built in 1959 and contains 98 two storey flats over 14 floors.  They are arranged in a “scissor block” style, served, at alternate levels, by a longitudinal common corridor that leads to a central stairwell. The flats are accessed on either side of the common corridor and at entrance level contain bedrooms and bathroom accommodation. An internal timber stair adjacent to the corridor gives access to the living room and kitchen on the flat’s upper floor, which spans from side to side of the building passing over the common corridor on the lower level.

Where the internal staircase passes over the corridor it cuts through the enclosure to the common corridor presenting a potential breach in the fire resisting construction above the ceiling. This could allow a fire in one of the flats to burn through the timber stair and spread into the ceiling void.

The letter then goes on to tell us that as a responsible person under the RRO it is up to us to decide what action "if any" needs to be taken.

In the words of my old boss. "Bring me solutions, not problems"

[Tom Sutton]

A previous posting provided a link to the Architects Journal which includes a study of Sceaux Gardens, Camberwell which is identical to Lakanal House and includes plans which does make the layout very clear. Just click on the image and you get a pfd. file which you can enlarge.
http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/sceaux-gardens-camberwell-the-original-1960-aj-building-study/5204667.article

[Username]

For info:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/12/tower-block-fire-construction-flaw