Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts

[nearlythere]

Tell me whay you cant proove the fire resistance and compartmentation.

Because if I can actually see failings in compartmentation where cabling, pipework and trunking penetrates compartment walls and ceilings goodness only knows what is, or what is not, behind plasterboard.

This is an interesting comment from Bobbins from another thread.
"I have some information on the preliminary causes, the stairs were of wood construction and the supporting structure penetrated the walls of the stair well into voids and cavities that were not fire stopped. House keeping and maintenance was poor and vandals had stolen some hinges from fire doors. The main problem for the lateral flame spread appears to be the building design. The internal stairs for each flat penetrated the lateral corridors inside the false ceiling without any form of fire resisting casing. Windows were open and plastic bird spikes on the window ledges are also thought to be contributing factors. All councils across the UK are checking their housing stock apparently the design faults would not have been obvious during a walk around risk assessment. ‘Official sources claim’ "

[Big T]

I dont disagree that prooving compartmentation is difficult. But it is not impossible. Is it unreasonable to carry out a destructive survey to ascertain compartmentation beyond plasterboard.

If it is unreasonable then it can't be assessed. Most FRA bods will not carry out a destructive survey to ascertain fire stopping beyond existing plasterboard.

I have carried out 1 destructive survey in a wing of an older block where a stay put policy had been in place.

If we take the design issue where the staircase penetrates the compartment as described in mine and Nearlytheres post if the issue was not obvious, and the builders, architect and council surveyors did not notice the issue when it was being built, how would an FRA have picked it up. Consider particularly that the government said originally that a layman could do an FRA with the sleeping guide of a property of this type.

There will obviously be other factors, but are we all really understanding the scissor design? I can email accross a Powerpoint presentation if anyone is unsure that I put together for a meeting the other day.

I think to get back on point and has been described to oblivion before. Would active fire protection have helped?

Sprinklers? Yes
Smoke extraction? Maybe
Communal alarm? No
Part 6 throughout? Maybe
Better management? Maybe
A destructive survey of the building during an FRA? Yes

Which would have been reasonable to install?

Sprinklers? No
Smoke extract? Yes
Communal alarm? NO
PArt 6 throughout? MAybe
Better management? Yes
Destructive survey during FRA? Only if the assessment questioned the compartmentation

I would bet my mortgage that there was not a FRA for the building at the time of the fire.

[jayjay]

I have been gathering information on these flats and the previous links are good at providing an insite into the design.
I would appreciate a copy of Big Ts power point as I was considering doing some thing similar.

It is becoming clear that fire separation is the issue and it is important that this is looked into carefully as the majority of tower blocks operate a "Stay Put" policy.

A summary of the areas I have been considering are listed below and I appreciate they may not be fact but are worth considering.

   Building Design
Design and building commenced in 1957

Photographs & plans do not show any doors across access corridor or at main staircase.

The external facia of the main staircase appears to have changed from the original design. As there is no indication of any smoke ventilation from the main staircase via windows or other openings did the original design incorporate smoke ventilation or had it been removed?

Main staircase width 3’6”

Original heating design was warm air supplied from ground floor oil fired boiler room fed to a unit in each maisonette entrance lobby which circulated air around the maisonette.

Gas was provided to each maisonette.

Maisonette design and means of escape.

Maisonette access from central corridor leads to bedroom/bathroom area then timber stairs to upper living kitchen area.  

Escape balcony provided at each side accessed from upper Living room/Kitchen level assumed to lead to main staircase.

Exit route available from bedrooms which bypasses entrance lobby and leads back into main entrance corridor.

Bedroom and lobby doors are stated as fire resisting (asbestos sheeting to one side only) but clear glass fan lights above.

The internal bathrooms were mechanically ventilated but how, is not explained.

Internal doors flush facing with asbestos cement facing to one side.

Comments relating to design and fire.
Fire involving the Living room/Kitchen area can affect both escape balconies at that level.

First maisonette involved in fire is adjacent to the main staircase; flames or smoke exiting from the window could, depending on the fire resistance of the door enter the staircase also flames could prevent passage along balcony.

Fire has entered the main access corridor and spread to the end of the block as flame and smoke is seen coming from the end windows on news videos.

The position of thes end windows or openings is not clear as they do not apper to be inline with the access corridor?

Apparent defect in fire resistance where internal timber maisonette staircase crosses main access corridor this may have allowed fire/smoke to enter the main access corridor. This can be seen in news video looking into a maisonette bedroom level, where daylight is clearly visible through to the opposite maisonette in the area of the internal staircase.

Vertical ducts run adjacent to internal staircase and also a vertical duct runs adjacent to the exit cupboard within each maisonette which is also on the the separating wall to the adjacent maisonette.

Fire spread within the block is downwards and horizontally, the lower maisonettes involved are adjacent to the duct from the upper maisonettes on fire.

Reports indicate open windows assisted fire spread this is not apparent from the news videos and fire development does not appear to be adjacent to the windows

Deliberate ignition is alleged

137 ft High
Access corridor 93ft from flat door to main staircase.

[Username]

Faulty TV being reported as the initial cause.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/22/camberwell-fire-investigation

[Stinky]

I have just carried out a FRA on a similar block of flats. 

Although there are many issues , it is apparent that there are no self closing devices to flat entrance doors (I know I am doing an FRA of the landlord areas only, but I was able to get into a couple).  This is a route of fire spread.  Occupants escapes their flat, and doesn't close the door behind them. 
I have CP3 Part 1 1971, this indicates that self closing devices to flat doors are recommended.  But I am interested to know whether the 1948 version of CP3 asked for them??   

With regards to compartmentation, CP3 1971 does not specify periods of fire resistance, it refers you to the Building Regs 1965.  If only I had a copy of the 1948 version, then I could see where this guidance refers you to.
Camberwell designed to 1948 CP3 possibily??  Maybe reference is made in CP3 to local acts, which would be London Building Acts 1939.  Obviously due to height, London Building Acts 1939 would be applicable.

[Big T]

Regardless of whether they were required or not I would suggest that an FRA of a block of flats would see a non self closing flat entrance door as an intolerable risk and note is as High priority

[Stinky]

I agree

[Allen Higginson]

I read a report that changes to the original structure may have been the reason why it spread in such a way,due to the fire stopping being compromised.
This theory was based on other work done in similar flats within the same borough.

[Davo]

For info

I have been told that all West Yorkshire I/Os are dropping their normal inspections and concentrating on high rise flats to go over them with a fine tooth comb.
Expected to take over a year to complete


davo

[kurnal]

No knee jerk reactions there then.

Wonder how many times they have shown the slightest interest in them since 1947?
Never had the legislative powers to do so will be the cry. You would have done if you had campaigned for it is the reply.

Lets not be fooled into thinking there is a fundamental problem with the design philosophy of blocks of flats.There isnt if they are maintained and managed effectively. Statistics prove that.

[nearlythere]

No knee jerk reactions there then.

Wonder how many times they have shown the slightest interest in them since 1947?
Never had the legislative powers to do so will be the cry. You would have done if you had campaigned for it is the reply.

Lets not be fooled into thinking there is a fundamental problem with the design philosophy of blocks of flats.There isnt if they are maintained and managed effectively. Statistics prove that.

Thats the issue K. It's not the buildings that are the "fire risk", as residents are usually inclined to describe, after the event. It's the people in them, who have no knowledge of fire safety until a tragedy when all of a sudden they become fire safety experts.
Is it unrealistic to expect people to take some responsibility and accountability for their own and the safety of others.

[jokar]

I can see it now, the Government will release funds to build new staircases on all these blocks all over the UK.  Each separate premises will have residential sprinklers installed, they will even consider the drainage problem that will ensue for this initiative.  Every staircase and corridor will have automatic smoke ventilation, a common fiire alarm system and extinguishers to fight the fire when it occurs.

Of course the residents will always keep the staircases and corridors free from all refuse, junk and other detrius.  No fire doors will ever be exchanged for UPVC and they will never be damaged.  The outlets for the rising mains will never be damaged or removed and all will be well with the world.  There will be no more wars, thanks Mr Blair, peace will be a part of our time, no one will die an accidental death and all will embarce and love one another.  Women will not fight for more and more power, prestige and the right to be treated as men.  Men will allow women to take the jobs that by the right of being born with testes are truly theres whether capable of doing so or not and men will be empathetic, sympathetic and romantic.


Well, perhaps not!!!!!

[nearlythere]

I can see it now, the Government will release funds to build new staircases on all these blocks all over the UK.  Each separate premises will have residential sprinklers installed, they will even consider the drainage problem that will ensue for this initiative.  Every staircase and corridor will have automatic smoke ventilation, a common fiire alarm system and extinguishers to fight the fire when it occurs.
Of course the residents will always keep the staircases and corridors free from all refuse, junk and other detrius.  No fire doors will ever be exchanged for UPVC and they will never be damaged.  The outlets for the rising mains will never be damaged or removed and all will be well with the world.  There will be no more wars, thanks Mr Blair, peace will be a part of our time, no one will die an accidental death and all will embarce and love one another.  Women will not fight for more and more power, prestige and the right to be treated as men.  Men will allow women to take the jobs that by the right of being born with testes are truly theres whether capable of doing so or not and men will be empathetic, sympathetic and romantic.
Well, perhaps not!!!!!

And someone will develop a hangover free wine. And politicians will submit honest expenses claims. And pigs will fly.......
But then it is society's fault after all.

[StuartH]

The fire was once again discussed on the local London news earlier this evening.

It was reported that Southwark council and the LFB are still refusing to confirm if a FRA and been conducted at the Camberwell premises since recent alterations. It was also reported that residents within other tower blocks are getting frustated as they have asked formally for confirmation from Southwark council that FRA's have been conducted at the their blocks. Southwark council are refusing to respond to these requests.

The news reporter visited a twenty storey high rise block and found that some of fire doors provided to protect the single staircase were damaged, missing, or wedged open.

[Big T]

I suspect that reporter was a fire safety proffessional with 200 years experience.