Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts

[nearlythere]

It was reported that Southwark council and the LFB are still refusing to confirm if a FRA and been conducted at the Camberwell premises since recent alterations. It was also reported that residents within other tower blocks are getting frustated as they have asked formally for confirmation from Southwark council that FRA's have been conducted at the their blocks. Southwark council are refusing to respond to these requests.

Does that all mean there probably isn't one?

[Big T]

It wouldn't surprise me. Councils and RSL's aren't geared up to deal with the RRO

[StuartH]

In reply to previous posts:

The news reporter most certainly was not someone with Fire Safety experience. However you do not need to have a degree in fire engineering to realise that, quite correctly, a fire door provided on a single protected staircase has been provided for a reason so therefore should not be wedged open. He stood next to it with the TV camera showing the wedged open door. Furthermore the reporter never stated that the Camberwell tower block, nor any other block, had not had a FRA conducted. Just simply that Southwalk have refused to confirm if one has been carried out. It will be for others to make assumptions.

It serves to support the views of some of the other posters on this subject that the problem does not necessarily lie with the design of the building, but typically with the lack of maintainence of the passive fire safety measures provided. 

[David Rooney]

So on a slight curve, shouldn't the RA take into account the fact its an "unmanaged" public dwelling and most likely people are not going to read, understand or generally obey a "keep shut" sign stuck on a door (if such a sign was ever there), as they are more likely to in an office environment where fire safety is managed, and prompt for additional control measures? 

[StuartH]

I think that is a fair statement. The difficult point is how.

I recently wrote an emergency plan for the rp for a high rise block, and documented that the security officer on site during the day should conduct daily recorded checks of the means of escape routes to check for combustible items dumped in them, and the condition of the fire doors provided.

Other than that I'm not sure what other reasonable measures could be taken.

We all know the benefits afforded by the provision of sprinkler systems but I cannot see the government supporting any legislation making the provision of sprinklers a requirement due to the cost to local councils.

The block that I have dealt with in the past was managed by a housing asscociation, with the lease due to expire within 18 months. The rp indicated they would not be renewing the lease due to the cost of maintaining the building and would be handing it back to the local council. The view is that the maintainence costs are already so high that it may be pulled down.

[Big T]

Makes sense, but not all RSLs have the luxury of a security guard on site.

 

[CivvyFSO]

I have been told that all West Yorkshire I/Os are dropping their normal inspections and concentrating on high rise flats to go over them with a fine tooth comb.
Expected to take over a year to complete

If an FRS decided to ignore Camberwell and carried on inspecting shops and factories, wouldn't the cry out there then be "Why are the FRS bothering us poor shopkeepers/factory owners when there are people dying in what are clearly worse risks out there?"?

[Midland Retty]

By the same token Civvy it's important not to have a knee jerk reaction to the situation.

Most places I've recently inspected have said things like " Oh I heard about that terrible incident in Camberwell - poor people" or words to that effect.

But they haven't been saying " why aren't you lot walking around tower blocks instead of bothering us shop keepers / factory owners / care home operators etc" - And I wouldnt expect them to.

As Kurnal has already said the incident in Camberwell, however sad, tragic and horrific does not mean that all high rise blocks are as risky, and we have to be very careful not to fall into the trap of going over the top, panicking, or knee jerking our way into requiring urgent upgrades which in the long run may be expensive and unecessary. 

[colin todd]

Besides which Raconteur Retty, who, in the Midlands, would want to have fridges dropped on top of their brigade cars from balconies and find the wheels removed when they come back.

[jayjay]

Sir Ken Knight's prelimanary report into the flats fire is now published

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/cfrareportcamberwell

[Goodsparks]

Nice...

• Consideration should be given at the time of major refurbishment or upgrading of the electrical installation, to ensuring that the active fire
protection systems are upgraded as appropriate, in particular:

• the installation of hard wired smoke detector(s) at each level within each dwelling in compliance with current standards and,

• using the existing knowledge and emerging technology now available, consideration should be given to providing a link between the individual dwelling and an alarm receiving centre ensuring prompt and accurate call to the fire and rescue service. Such systems also allow for a manual, pre-determined delay of the call transmission to prevent unwanted false alarms.

So what sort of magic box are all of these stand-alone systems going to connect to and who's going to be responsible for maintaining it in that kind of environment ?

[CivvyFSO]

Interesting comment regarding risk assessments and competent persons in that report.

[jokar]

More nonsense.  Loads of stand alone alarms, who is going to ensure the evacuation takes place, is the staircase wide enough for all those people to leave.  Do we  really want all sorts, children, babies, expectant mothers the aged and people with disabilities evacuating in the early hours of a morning in the cold, the wet or ice and snow.  Its another piece of irresponsible reporting that has no bearance now or in the future.  LB Southwark would be far better off following L&B stance and have domestic sprinklers installed in each residence.  Now that would be a piece of work.  The drainage would need some working out though.

[CivvyFSO]

I don't think he is advocating that the detection is linked, just pure stand-alone detection in each flat to bring them up to the standard they would be if they were built now. Nor is he advocating full evac.

[jokar]

Ok, so we have detection in the common areas but we don't want anyone to take any notice of it!!! and the point is?