Author Topic: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts  (Read 74099 times)

Offline Stinky

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2009, 09:22:13 PM »
I have had a read of this.

With all these stand alone detectors fitted into the flats, linked to an alarm receiving centre, this centre is going to be dealing with lots of false alarms.  Would fire brigade get called every time?!

Sir Ken Knight has stated that a suppression system is required in blocks over 30m, when they aren't required!

Offline StuartH

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2009, 09:39:24 PM »
In the case of a tower block which I have had dealings with recently in London, there was self contained domestic smoke detectors fitted within all flats. The problem is that as they were located within a tenants private flat, the rp was unable to confirm that they were still servicable, or even that they were still present. It is seemingly extremely difficult for rp's to ensure that domestic smoke detectors are maintained within a servicable condition if they are located within a private flat.

It has to be accepted that in a fair number of cases tenants cannot be relied upon to maintain domestic smoke detectors located within their flat.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2009, 11:00:33 PM »
Ok, so we have detection in the common areas but we don't want anyone to take any notice of it!!! and the point is?

He is not advocating detection in the common areas either as far as I can tell. He always talks about detection "within the dwelling".

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2009, 08:50:41 AM »
Sir Ken Knight's prelimanary report into the flats fire is now published

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/cfrareportcamberwell
The installation of hard wired smoke detector(s) at each level within each dwelling in compliance with current standards.[/i]
No problem. Thought it would have been done already.

Consideration given to providing a link between the individual dwellings and an alarm receiving centre.
Good idea but really? A consideration only so box ticked.

Maintaining the inherent passive fire safety principles of the building e.g. fire resisting doors, fire stopping provision, smoke ventilation.
Naturally. Building Control issue?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2009, 09:28:38 AM »
Heres another fire news story this weekend

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8191115.stm

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2009, 09:36:24 AM »

Maintaining the inherent passive fire safety principles of the building e.g. fire resisting doors, fire stopping provision, smoke ventilation.
Naturally. Building Control issue?

Hi NT
Only a building control issue in so far as alterations and major refurbs are concerned. We have previously  confirmed  the legal duties of the RP  landlord to carry out a fire risk assessment of the communal areas (Except in Scotland). It is absolutely clear but often overlooked  by the tick box merchants that this duty covers service ducts, refuse chutes, substation rooms and ventilation.

Has Northern Ireland legislation followed the English model in respect of flats and common areas?

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2009, 10:36:59 AM »

Maintaining the inherent passive fire safety principles of the building e.g. fire resisting doors, fire stopping provision, smoke ventilation.
Naturally. Building Control issue?

Hi NT
Only a building control issue in so far as alterations and major refurbs are concerned. We have previously  confirmed  the legal duties of the RP  landlord to carry out a fire risk assessment of the communal areas (Except in Scotland). It is absolutely clear but often overlooked  by the tick box merchants that this duty covers service ducts, refuse chutes, substation rooms and ventilation.

Has Northern Ireland legislation followed the English model in respect of flats and common areas?
Hi K
No, I misread this item despite it being a very simple statement. Is that the sign of seniority creeping in? My long term memory is improving somewhat though.
Once BC are done and dusted that's it really. I think technically they may have a year to ensure maintenance of measures but as far as I know this is not pushed.
Issue I had, but still advising on, was residential private apts which were built in phases (4). First phase completed and cert issued. Remaining phases where then completed without notices to BC. Subsequently completed for occupation without BC knowledge (they say) and of course no cert issued.
Compartmentation problems now exist in areas you mention but BC of opinion that as it is over year it has little to do with them other than offering advice. BC have asked managing agents for copy of FRA and I think they are kacking themselves a little. Very hard to miss an apartment block of flats going up in a city centre.

Am waiting instructions to carry out survey of more private apartments. Seems insurance company want the building(s) surveyed for compliance with current B Regs.  I do know that they were built within current Regs period so I'm not quite sure what the problem is or why they want it done. 

Maybe to increase premiums if weaknesses in compartmentation uncovered.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Username

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2009, 10:06:20 AM »
"Botched council renovations may have caused Camberwell tower block fire"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/06/camberwell-fire

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2009, 02:17:53 PM »
"according to fire safety experts."

"Because the building has only one escape staircase, flats were designed to contain any fire for at least an hour, known as compartmentalistion."

"Webb believes the work compromised fireproofing between flats and the corridor. In his opinion, this allowed a blaze to spread into the ceiling cavity, causing a "flashover" fireball."

Standard media twaddle, IMO.



Offline Big T

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2009, 04:35:41 PM »
Where does it stipulate that residential buildings over 30M need a sprinkler system?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2009, 09:42:47 PM »
Hi Big T
See ADB 2006 page 72 para 8.14.

And breathe again- its new build only. Thats the easy bit. To what standard should the sprinkler system be installed? And where? and the water supplies? Thats where it all gets blurred and iffy.Some answers can be found in the ADB but it raises as many questions as answers.

Offline jokar

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2009, 05:36:24 PM »
There are many hundreds of blocks like these all over the UK and one has had a significant fire with life loss.  If Sir KK follows the thought process through where does the money come from for all these upgrades?

Local Authorities are already struggling and some are saying that CT will have to rise next year as the Government has already indicated that there will be less for them in 2010/2011.  Will PFI work?  If not the CT payers will foot a bill for an incident unlikely ever to reoccur and as an occurrence must have been such a small percentage chance that it will not have recorded.

Offline Steven N

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2009, 09:20:19 PM »
I do wonder where this wonderful emerging technology is coming from that is mentioned in the report & what will happen when UWFs go through the roof due to the individual flats being linked to an ARC !!!
These are my views and not the views of my employer

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2009, 01:26:00 AM »
There are many hundreds of blocks like these all over the UK and one has had a significant fire with life loss.  If Sir KK follows the thought process through where does the money come from for all these upgrades?

Local Authorities are already struggling and some are saying that CT will have to rise next year as the Government has already indicated that there will be less for them in 2010/2011.  Will PFI work?  If not the CT payers will foot a bill for an incident unlikely ever to reoccur and as an occurrence must have been such a small percentage chance that it will not have recorded.

Where Jokar

Ok there there are a several scissor blocks out there but they are in the minority. Dont get me wrong I do see what you are saying and you are correct, but there arent many hundreds, and i think its important to point that out

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Fatal flats blaze inquiry starts
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2009, 12:11:50 PM »
I don't think the comments are specific to the scissor block style flats. The incident itself might have been exacerbated by the layout, but the political fallout is targetted at all flats.

What we have to consider when we look at KK's comments is public opinion. KK is responsible for fire safety, and when 6 people are dead and people were talking about 'mazes' (Don't know how a corridor leading to one stair can be a maze, but there you have it) and 'accidents waiting to happen' he HAS to do something about it. We can argue here all day about what is and isn't reasonable, but there is nothing he could possibly say that would make everyone happy. We are just a small cross section of people, and we are a cross section he is not trying to please or appease with his suggestions. If his suggestions are construed as protecting people in flats from a similar fate then he is succeeding in his political purpose. Actual practicalities are secondary, and by the time they find out that certain aspects are not practical the tide of interest will be focussed elsewhere.