Fire safety, an employers guide.

[boroboy]

My local conatct informs me that the powers that be in my local brigade are saying that the above guide is no longer available in print and that persons enquiring are being redirected to PAS 79.  Any one know if this is true in other Brigades?

[Mark Coram]

Its still in print Boroboy  and I'm not sure where they got the idea it wasnt. We've not issued any guidance on this matter either way.

[pd]

Mark,
Off topic I know.
Did the RRO get through in the washup before parliament rose or is it going to have to go back for 'rubber stamping' by the new parliament?
I know that it has all party support but if it didn't make it through I just have this horrible feeling that something else will crop up to delay it. God I am fed up with planning its implementation.

[Mark Coram]

It hasnt been lost - it has been approved by the Committees but just has to go through the vote procedure following the election, which should be painless. Other than that nothing has changed.

[Dave H]

Boroboy,

In my opinion the PAS 79 is a poor replacement for the Employers Guide (EG) and if any powers to be are directing people down that route, then I can only assume that they haven’t read them both.

The only advantage that the PAS has over the EG is that it contains a template for a FRA, (a FRA which, by the way, has been doing the rounds for some years now).  The EG leaves the PAS standing in every other area, its information is much more in depth, it is user friendly and gives the layman confidence when carrying out a FRA.

The PAS 79 is advertised as ‘ground breaking’.  The only thing that broke the ground when I read it was my jaw hitting the floor when I realised that I had just wasted £104.

[Slim Jim]

My understanding is that the delay in implementation of the RRO is due to the delay in producing the necessary guidance documents.  They would have been ready if the ODPM had not 'sacked' a team of competent fire service professionals, because the early drafts were deemed 'too prescriptive'.  Now this task has been hived off to another department using private consultants, and we await with bated breath their products....Will they be able to 'dumb down' the very standards that have been succesful in saving countless lives; in place because people died in tragic fires?

Actually, my own view is that the government know they have gone too far with their modernisation programme (or enforced cultural change, mainly for change's sake), and they are watching what happens as the British Fire Service goes into meltdown!  Frankly, most Brigades are not enforcing the Workplace Regulations effectively - so how can they be expected to enforce the RRO?  Well, allowing HMFSI to wither on the vine is most unhelpful, especially when many Brigades are cutting back on their enforcement capabilities through cuts, sorry, IRMP. I really do despair...and I certainly would not be proud to work for the department that has presided over this sorry mess!

[boroboy]

Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments and observations on this subject!!

[Fishy]

No sure whether the 'Employer's Guide' is still available in print, but it's free on the web at... www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/fire/index.htm

[colin todd]

Dave ( or would you care to have me use your REAL name), feel free to criticise all you wish, but stick to facts. The template has never ever been in the public domain.
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Yes, I am the one who thinks that the EG is crap, that the authors have never actually carried out a fire risk assessment in their life, and that even civil servants should always use their real names.

[Brian Catton]

The employers guide was established to be the be all and end all for the employer. A simple guide whereby the employer can do his/her risk assessment without calling in an "expert". To compare PAS 79 with the EG is like comparing a Haynes workshop manual with Autocar magazine. One is comprehensive and the other is entertaining but not detailed enough. Critics should ask themselves why the EG is free on the web whilst PAS 79 costs £99. The cost of an document generally reflects the amount of research that has been done to produce it. and of course the competency of the author/s.
At the end of the day FRA still need a competent person to carry them out.
I will be glad when the FP Act is phased out so that some of the serving fire officers or retired fire officers who are now FR Assessors might make some decisions based on risk and not on what is detailed on a Fire Certificate. Now there is a novel idea.

[colin todd]

Yo Brian, you are back (and with a bang too)!!!! Good to see you again.  Love the analogy. Who is this man Haynes though. Didn't he used to be on TV with Nicholas Parsons? You will be hearing from Autocar's solicitors for comparing their glossy mag with the useless stuff in the EG, like listen carefully children, what we need to do is to separate the ignition sources from the combustible materials. DUH! I believe the new guides will be more scientific though as a draft I saw says we could also avoid oxygen. Sometimes when I read that stuff I lose the will to breathe oxygen anyway. With regard to competence, I have another analogy for you. There are those like my teenage son (bless him) who is always great at giving advice as to how to drive but, when I took him to put oil in his car, he wanted to pour it down the wee hole where the dipstick goes. Then there is Brunel.

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Yes, I am the one who has the balls to use his own name instead of pretending to be a shed load of other people.

[Brian Catton]

Thanks Colin. The name of the manual may be wrong but it is the content that is important. A bit like a risk assessment really. If you write Fire Risk assessment on the cover you have to make sure the building was suitably and sufficiently assessed. Now there are two words that people who religously follow the EG may like to discuss, if they understand them of course.Light blue touch paper and stand clear.

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I am  another one that uses their real name.

[dave bev]

i use the name i was given, i had no choice in the matter! should i now change my name to something more suitable no-one will know me any more. names are merely a capitalist ploy (i wont go into religion at this point) to make the working classes recognise their place in society as seen from their perspective.

[Brian Catton]

There Colin, I told you. They obviously do not understand. I am also confused. Is Dave H the same as Dave Bev? Now what was the subject? Ah yes the E.G. Would anyone like to continue?

[colin todd]

Nah Davey (dave bev) is Ok really. And he does exist. I have even partaken of lunch with him. He is just a poor misguided soul who works for the FBU, but is otherwise sane, honest and unlike most card carriers a good laugh. Personally, I think it is good of him to give up his time here, when there is a commie revolution to plan. Personally, I ignore guests with all sorts of names. Sometimes they are sad individuals with some axe to grind but are devoid of the balls to say who they are or are employees of departments like the ODPM who choose to pretend to be all sorts of people like private sector employees (which I presume that is an unfulfilled aspiration they have or something) or both. There are of course exceptions. Now you are back you will catch on. It isn't difficult.