Fire safety, an employers guide.

[Dave H]

Colin

Just because I feel that I have wasted £104 on the PAS, doesn’t mean that I am a civil servant.  In fact I don’t think that there will be many civil servants who would spend their hard earned cash on purchasing one.  By all means if you want to reveal my name then feel free to do so.

You asked me to stick to the facts, well I have.  The example FRA in the PAS has been in use for quite a few years now, so I wouldn’t exactly call it ground breaking.  Here’s another couple of facts, the PAS dedicates less than 1 page to Means of Escape, whilst the EG dedicates around 20 pages to the same subject.  The PAS does not contain an example of a line drawing plan, where as the EG does.

As I stated earlier, ‘in my opinion’ the EG is a better document to assist the layman in carrying out a FRA.

You may come back and say that the PAS isn’t aimed at the layman, if this is the case then who is it aimed at?

[colin todd]

I didnt say you were. Its poor mark who isnt sure if he is a civil servant or a small businessman. The sample FRA has never been in the public domain (watch my lips) and it was modified in accordance with comments from stakeholders so by definition it cant be equivalent to anything else. In any case it is only a sample, as it is in an informative annex not a normative annex. Anyone reading the employers guide alone cannot define a suitable format for a FRA-many try, and a substantial proportion fail. You would not expect a guide to FRA to discuss the principles of means of escape from scratch-the PAS points out it is too big a subject and it isnt a fire safety guide. One reason that there is only a page is that the page to which you refer then directs the readoer to an annex on the subject. There is no requirement for a line drawing on a FRA -that is a different animal.  The PAS states that it  not aimed at the layman, so if you had read it I would not need to come back to tell you that. It is aimed at the multitudes, including fire officers and those carrying out fire risk assessments for a living , who have difficulty in knowing how a FRA should be structured.

[Paul]

Just to dig out an old thorn in the side.

I have read through the PAS 79 and feel it is good.  I think a lot of the guidance and inforamtion in there is simple enough for any self respecting fire safety professional to understand.

I do however feel that the guidance is based on a lot of inforamtion that is already out there, under 5588 / 7974 , Part B etc.  But to put it all together and have some direction is what the industy needed.  if nothing else to weed out the numbers of companies out there that sell fire extinguishers and signage, but are now offering fire risk assessments in order to 'recommend' their products.

I have read the EG, but to be honest, if I tried to use this as guidance for a FRA, where would you start, theres nothing on ASET's when dealing outside the travel distances set out in PArt B.  It is as many say a lay persons guide to fire safety, and is very general.  Nothing on Human Factors, I should make  a list.

As was discussed earlier (around 3 months ago), if the employers guid has 20 pages to discuss and the PAS 1, the guidance is simple, PAS 79 is a methodology, not a Fire Safety Manual.  After all you couldn't buy an all singing, all encompassing fire safty manual for £99.  Just look how much the BS's are for example.  £1400 a year I pay.  £99 fo a guide in using this is a fair price I would say.



It is about time this sort of guidance was available!!  keep the sharks out!!

[Dave H]

Colin, I wouldn’t want you to think that I am having a go at this document for the sake of it; and I fully understand your stance as I appreciate that a lot of hard work will have gone into compiling it.

The original question was basically, who is it aimed at.  You (and the document) states that it is not aimed at the layman, which means that it must be aimed at the Fire Safety Professional.  This is contradicted by the latest BSI catalogue which states that it will enable employers (the layman) to carry out a suitable and sufficient FRA.

I still maintain that I am disappointed by the document, as there is nothing new in it for me and it certainly isn’t ‘ground breaking’.  Furthermore, I also think that if any ‘Fire Safety Professionals’ out there would have to refer to the PAS to carry out a suitable FRA; then they are in the wrong job.

[colin todd]

Well then the world is peppered with fire safety professionals who are in the wrong job. The PAS is supported by the IFE. The reason is that it is an official and accurate publicly available fact that 40% (yes 40%) of people who apply to the IFE for registration on the register of fire risk assessors are rejected when their fire risk assessments are studied by the review group. It was the opinion of the Institution that advice on a suitable structure for an FRA was NOT available anywhere ( including the EG) and that a PAS would assist. Thats one of many reasons we wrote it. As for the EG, we have now delivered 34 FRA training courses for fire authority personnel, the vast majority of these being in-house for fire brigades because the I/Os have no benchmark as to what is suitable and sufficient. The PAS helps them too, bearing in mind it is based on the course we provide. It can also help the informed employer who is not exacly a LAYMAN. Or he sure as hell shouldnt be if the RRO is to have any hope of success.

[colin todd]

However, since David you are so superior to all others in the profession why dont you send your copy to me and Ill arrange for BSI to return your money.

[colin todd]

Thinking about it, you should really be paid commission. Each time you say something about PAS 79, I get emails asking where to get it!!!!

[dave bev]

there are some colin who wish you would get it, and even perhaps some hope you do, very soon! - (dont worry the secret route for captialists who remain secretly faithfull to the red flag will kept open long enough for 'some' to flee. i have provisionally pencilled the names of you and your family on the list, problem is i cant remember which list? wear the dark blue anarok and be at the crossroads at 2000 hrs)- we will be moving to the 24 hour clock because its more inclusive, those hours which were previously referred to as am or pm will become four digit numbers and will be much happier as a result.

dave bev

[colin todd]

Davie, Now you have lost me completely. Might I respectfully ask what you are on about?? Your posting doesnt seem to relate to this thread. Have the commies sent you some bad vodka???