Author Topic: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms  (Read 103265 times)

Offline colin todd

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2009, 02:43:55 AM »
Wizzy, The Rp did spend a lot of time, but had the balls to stand up for what they believed in. They did spend money also, but it went to a good cause, namely port and cigars for the lawyers and maintenance for the former Mrs Todd (God bless her). With regard to their stress levels, they were alleviated by the enjoyment of my sparkling wit and repartee, of which you denied Wizzyco the benefit when you declined my offer of tuition in BS 7273-4.

Ps If God reads this, please rescind the above request.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Midland Retty

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2009, 01:29:14 PM »
Difficult one this. I see your argument Wiz, the stress for RP, and the financial outlay etc, but atleast there is the mechanism whereby the RP can challenge the enforcing authority, and that is, like it or lump it a good thing in the long run.

Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2009, 02:09:57 PM »
Wizzy, The Rp did spend a lot of time, but had the balls to stand up for what they believed in. They did spend money also, but it went to a good cause, namely port and cigars for the lawyers and maintenance for the former Mrs Todd (God bless her). With regard to their stress levels, they were alleviated by the enjoyment of my sparkling wit and repartee, of which you denied Wizzyco the benefit when you declined my offer of tuition in BS 7273-4.

Ps If God reads this, please rescind the above request.

So now it seems I'm paying for the maintenance of the former Mrs Todd! How did that come about? I've never even met her!

Never mind, I will now guess the amount that the F&RS wasted on their pointless efforts, add 10% to this figure, for luck, and then overcharge them by this amount on their next purchase from me (I also do this to the Rozzers in respect of speeding fines and to the local Council for parking tickets). I know it wasn't me that suffered the problem, but hey, someone has got to punish them for it!

In fact, this is how the world goes around; I pay my taxes for worthless services but charge my customers to cover those charges (plus profit). So, I'm alright Jack.

It seems the only ones losing out are the people who have no-one to pass the burden on to!

And it is their own fault for letting it happen to them. So there!


Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2009, 02:14:17 PM »
And I don't see it as the FRS thinking that they will try it on and go for a determination 'just to see'. The chances are that they will have enforced SD in hotel rooms (Thinking they are doing the right thing, might I add) a number of times with no appeal being brought forward. It is the RP challenging the FRS that caused the whole case.

Whether they were right or wrong to do this people need to remember that the FRS gain nothing through prosecutions, and we gain nothing through enforcing stuff. We are not like the extinguisher saleman selling stuff that is not needed in order to line his own pockets. We are generally working on the side of caution, and the end purpose is to make places safer. At times misguided, yes. But if you explain to Joe Public that BS5839-1 pretty much says he is expendable when in a hotel I am sure that he would be on that FRS' side when it comes to SD regardless of what statistics you can show him.


Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2009, 02:42:27 PM »
Difficult one this. I see your argument Wiz, the stress for RP, and the financial outlay etc, but atleast there is the mechanism whereby the RP can challenge the enforcing authority, and that is, like it or lump it a good thing in the long run.

M.R., in my opinion if the F&RS thought the authorative guidance was wrong, then there should be a way where they could challenge it without involving a RP (who is only doing what everybody else says is correct). In this case maybe the F&RS should have taken on the BSI directly in some way.



« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 02:46:10 PM by Wiz »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2009, 02:56:10 PM »
And I don't see it as the FRS thinking that they will try it on and go for a determination 'just to see'. The chances are that they will have enforced SD in hotel rooms (Thinking they are doing the right thing, might I add) a number of times with no appeal being brought forward. It is the RP challenging the FRS that caused the whole case.

Whether they were right or wrong to do this people need to remember that the FRS gain nothing through prosecutions, and we gain nothing through enforcing stuff. We are not like the extinguisher saleman selling stuff that is not needed in order to line his own pockets. We are generally working on the side of caution, and the end purpose is to make places safer. At times misguided, yes. But if you explain to Joe Public that BS5839-1 pretty much says he is expendable when in a hotel I am sure that he would be on that FRS' side when it comes to SD regardless of what statistics you can show him.



CivvyFSO, I have no doubt that the F&RS had what they thought were the best intentions. In fact, they can use the 'public safety' argument to anything they may come up with. It is hard to argue against such an argument when put as a 'bare' statement. But should they be doing what they did in this case?

Surely, they should be enforcing failures to comply with existing recognised published 'authorative guidance' and not making up their own guidance, just because they think they know better? Or is this actually one of their many roles, and I have just misunderstood things?

There has always been too many people putting their oar in and stating 'how things should be done'. Is it right that the GLC, the ACFO, the WI, the YMCA, Fireman Sam and the teletubbies can all put forward their own ideas in contradiction to existing 'authortive guidance' and suggest that it should have equal validity? Such a plethora of contradictions make the whole issue confusing to those trying to comply.

We should all be working together to form one set of recommendations that are easy for everyone to understand and to comply with.

Also, I thought the smoke detectors in hotel bedrooms requirement was a pretty straight forward argument. I'm sure the F&RS service would be the first to complain about a high level of unwanted alarms caused by guests smoking and steam from bathrooms etc. Also if smoke detection in bedrooms is so critical, why does the F&RS not lobby for them to be fitted in domestic situations as well?

Personally, I feel the best compromise would be that all hotels would be required to have addressable fire alarm systems with smoke detectors and sounders in bedrooms, but the system would be configured so that the bedroom smoke detector only operated that bedroom sounder and also, of course, warned the hotel management to investigate. This would provide smoke detection coverage for the bedroom occupants but without unwanted alarms causing the whole hotel to be eveacuated. Simples!

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2009, 03:19:49 PM »
I think I agree with all you are saying Wiz.

The working together thing is difficult while we have ever-so-slightly different agendas.

a) FRS: Ultimate safety regardless of cost. (We want sprinklers everywhere)
b) Consultant: Reasonable safety, taking cost into account. (Saving just enough to warrant the RP paying you for your services)
c) RP: No cost whatsoever please.
d) Fire Engineer: Sub-standard level of safety, proved to be completely acceptable in terms of Q,M,Z,V & T. (Same cost to RP as "a" or "b" but money ends up in engineers pocket)

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2009, 03:37:32 PM »
I also agree with you Wiz and can't really argue with anything you have said.

I would love to see clearly defined boundaries when it comes to the legislatuion, the guidance and standards out there, and instead of different guides and indeed legislation which contradict each other why not have as set of guides which make fire safety clearer particularly for RPs, and which is line with guidance / legislation used by other authorities (such as Building Control etc )

This buisness of the Fire Authority challenging standards directly with the policy makers themselves rather than the RP is legimtimate argument too. Infact I'm not sure why this does not take place. Perhaps it does, but I've never heard of it. There are reasons why I suspect this doesn't happen to be honest.

As an aside the Fire Authorities in the UK have lobbied for smoke detection in domestic dwellings for many years. Because it hasn't any powers of enforcement in single domestic dwellings the UK Fire & Rescue service introduced Home Fire Safety Checks / Free fitting of smoke alarms. And don't forget all new dwellings now have to have mains powered smoke detection under building regs. So some policy changes do get made....eventually.




Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2009, 04:58:37 PM »
I think I agree with all you are saying Wiz.

The working together thing is difficult while we have ever-so-slightly different agendas.

a) FRS: Ultimate safety regardless of cost. (We want sprinklers everywhere)
b) Consultant: Reasonable safety, taking cost into account. (Saving just enough to warrant the RP paying you for your services)
c) RP: No cost whatsoever please.
d) Fire Engineer: Sub-standard level of safety, proved to be completely acceptable in terms of Q,M,Z,V & T. (Same cost to RP as "a" or "b" but money ends up in engineers pocket)

Civvy, I don't know whether you are serious with all of the above!

If you are, may I offer my own perspective on their agendas:

a) FRS: Unlikely to consider cost to benefit. Prefers 'safest' option no matter the cost. Earns same wages anyway.
b) Consultant: Prefers high cost because fees are based on a percentage of project cost. Expects F.E. to do most of the work.
c) RP: Doesn't want to 'waste' money. Wonders why Consultant doesn't know what FRS wants.
d) Fire Engineer: Consultant/RP can have whatever they want but expects to be blamed if what they want is not compliant. Hopes to get paid for the job, one day!

« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 05:14:55 PM by Wiz »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2009, 05:08:27 PM »
I also agree with you Wiz and can't really argue with anything you have said.

I would love to see clearly defined boundaries when it comes to the legislatuion, the guidance and standards out there, and instead of different guides and indeed legislation which contradict each other why not have as set of guides which make fire safety clearer particularly for RPs, and which is line with guidance / legislation used by other authorities (such as Building Control etc )

This buisness of the Fire Authority challenging standards directly with the policy makers themselves rather than the RP is legimtimate argument too. Infact I'm not sure why this does not take place. Perhaps it does, but I've never heard of it. There are reasons why I suspect this doesn't happen to be honest.

As an aside the Fire Authorities in the UK have lobbied for smoke detection in domestic dwellings for many years. Because it hasn't any powers of enforcement in single domestic dwellings the UK Fire & Rescue service introduced Home Fire Safety Checks / Free fitting of smoke alarms. And don't forget all new dwellings now have to have mains powered smoke detection under building regs. So some policy changes do get made....eventually.



Mr MR, I agree with and undersatnd the points you make in the first two paragraphs of your post.

But despite all the good work the Fire Authorities have done improving the use of smoke detection in domestic dwellings, I have never seen anything regarding the 'paramount importance' of smoke detection in domestic bedrooms. If it is more important to have any smoke detection in circulation areas in domestic dwellings rather than bedrooms, why isn't it the same in hotels?

« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 05:17:20 PM by Wiz »

Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2009, 05:13:15 PM »
I'd like to point out that I actually have no problem with the F&RS trying to make our lives safer. I know that 99% of people involved in such, are doing so with the best intentions.

However, I would like to see the F&RS work to make changes to the recognised 'authorative guidance' where they consider there is a problem, rather than by taking action against a RP who has complied with the authorative Guidance

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2009, 05:29:56 PM »
I'd like to point out that I actually have no problem with the F&RS trying to make our lives safer. I know that 99% of people involved in such, are doing so with the best intentions.

However, I would like to see the F&RS work to make changes to the recognised 'authorative guidance' where they consider there is a problem, rather than by taking action against a RP who has complied with the authorative Guidance


The preparation of this British Standard (BS5839 Pt 1 2002) was entrusted by Technical
Committee, FSH/12, Fire detection and alarm systems, to Subcommittee
FSH/12/1, Installation and servicing, upon which the following bodies were
represented:
Association of British Fire Trades
BRE Building Research Establishment
BRE/LPC Laboratories
British Cables Association
British Fire Consortium
British Fire Protection Systems Association
British Nuclear Fuels plc
BT plc
Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
Consumer Policy Committee of BSI
Department of Health NHS Estates
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Industries Council
Engineering Industries Association
Health and Safety Executive
Her Majesty’s Fire Service Inspectorate
Institution of Fire Prevention Officers
Institution of Fire Safety
Institute of Petroleum
Institution of Electrical Engineers
Line of Fire
London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority
Maritime and Coastguard Agency
MOD — UK Defence Standardization
National Association of Fire Officers
National Caravan Council Limited
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
Nuclear Industry Fire Safety
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister — Building Regulations Division
Professional Lighting and Sound Association
Royal Society of Health
Trades Union Congress
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 05:35:30 PM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Wiz

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2009, 09:20:13 AM »
I'd like to point out that I actually have no problem with the F&RS trying to make our lives safer. I know that 99% of people involved in such, are doing so with the best intentions.

However, I would like to see the F&RS work to make changes to the recognised 'authorative guidance' where they consider there is a problem, rather than by taking action against a RP who has complied with the authorative Guidance


The preparation of this British Standard (BS5839 Pt 1 2002) was entrusted by Technical
Committee, FSH/12, Fire detection and alarm systems, to Subcommittee
FSH/12/1, Installation and servicing, upon which the following bodies were
represented:
Association of British Fire Trades
BRE Building Research Establishment
BRE/LPC Laboratories
British Cables Association
British Fire Consortium
British Fire Protection Systems Association
British Nuclear Fuels plc
BT plc
Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
Consumer Policy Committee of BSI
Department of Health NHS Estates
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Industries Council
Engineering Industries Association
Health and Safety Executive
Her Majesty’s Fire Service Inspectorate
Institution of Fire Prevention Officers
Institution of Fire Safety
Institute of Petroleum
Institution of Electrical Engineers
Line of Fire
London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority
Maritime and Coastguard Agency
MOD — UK Defence Standardization
National Association of Fire Officers
National Caravan Council Limited
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
Nuclear Industry Fire Safety
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister — Building Regulations Division
Professional Lighting and Sound Association
Royal Society of Health
Trades Union Congress


Cor! The FRS were brave going up against that lot! It even includes some of their own 'mates'.

But, of course, they weren't. Their target was a little RP. They obviously didn't realise that some RPs are prepared to fight back, and can call on the above troops as back up!

Hopefully the 'bullies' have now scurried away with a bloody nose and will think twice before 'picking on' the small kids in the future. In fact, if they don't act a bit more reasonably, maybe the headmaster should remove their 'prefect' privileges!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 09:47:29 AM by Wiz »

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2009, 11:16:45 AM »
I'd like to point out that I actually have no problem with the F&RS trying to make our lives safer. I know that 99% of people involved in such, are doing so with the best intentions.

However, I would like to see the F&RS work to make changes to the recognised 'authorative guidance' where they consider there is a problem, rather than by taking action against a RP who has complied with the authorative Guidance


The preparation of this British Standard (BS5839 Pt 1 2002) was entrusted by Technical
Committee, FSH/12, Fire detection and alarm systems, to Subcommittee
FSH/12/1, Installation and servicing, upon which the following bodies were
represented:
Association of British Fire Trades
BRE Building Research Establishment
BRE/LPC Laboratories
British Cables Association
British Fire Consortium
British Fire Protection Systems Association
British Nuclear Fuels plc
BT plc
Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
Consumer Policy Committee of BSI
Department of Health NHS Estates
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Industries Council
Engineering Industries Association
Health and Safety Executive
Her Majesty’s Fire Service Inspectorate
Institution of Fire Prevention Officers
Institution of Fire Safety
Institute of Petroleum
Institution of Electrical Engineers
Line of Fire
London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority
Maritime and Coastguard Agency
MOD — UK Defence Standardization
National Association of Fire Officers
National Caravan Council Limited
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
Nuclear Industry Fire Safety
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister — Building Regulations Division
Professional Lighting and Sound Association
Royal Society of Health
Trades Union Congress


Cor! The FRS were brave going up against that lot! It even includes some of their own 'mates'.

But, of course, they weren't. Their target was a little RP. They obviously didn't realise that some RPs are prepared to fight back, and can call on the above troops as back up!

Hopefully the 'bullies' have now scurried away with a bloody nose and will think twice before 'picking on' the small kids in the future. In fact, if they don't act a bit more reasonably, maybe the headmaster should remove their 'prefect' privileges!
It was the Caravan Council that got me shaking in my boots!

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2009, 11:35:39 AM »
I'd like to point out that I actually have no problem with the F&RS trying to make our lives safer. I know that 99% of people involved in such, are doing so with the best intentions.

However, I would like to see the F&RS work to make changes to the recognised 'authorative guidance' where they consider there is a problem, rather than by taking action against a RP who has complied with the authorative Guidance


The preparation of this British Standard (BS5839 Pt 1 2002) was entrusted by Technical
Committee, FSH/12, Fire detection and alarm systems, to Subcommittee
FSH/12/1, Installation and servicing, upon which the following bodies were
represented:
Association of British Fire Trades
BRE Building Research Establishment
BRE/LPC Laboratories
British Cables Association
British Fire Consortium
British Fire Protection Systems Association
British Nuclear Fuels plc
BT plc
Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
Consumer Policy Committee of BSI
Department of Health NHS Estates
Electrical Contractors Association
Energy Industries Council
Engineering Industries Association
Health and Safety Executive
Her Majesty’s Fire Service Inspectorate
Institution of Fire Prevention Officers
Institution of Fire Safety
Institute of Petroleum
Institution of Electrical Engineers
Line of Fire
London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority
Maritime and Coastguard Agency
MOD — UK Defence Standardization
National Association of Fire Officers
National Caravan Council Limited
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
Nuclear Industry Fire Safety
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister — Building Regulations Division
Professional Lighting and Sound Association
Royal Society of Health
Trades Union Congress


Cor! The FRS were brave going up against that lot! It even includes some of their own 'mates'.

But, of course, they weren't. Their target was a little RP. They obviously didn't realise that some RPs are prepared to fight back, and can call on the above troops as back up!

Hopefully the 'bullies' have now scurried away with a bloody nose and will think twice before 'picking on' the small kids in the future. In fact, if they don't act a bit more reasonably, maybe the headmaster should remove their 'prefect' privileges!
It was the Caravan Council that got me shaking in my boots!
Point I am making is that if the F&R Service representation had concerns about the type of detection the BS is suggesting for hotel bedrooms why did it not open its gub at the committee stage, or did it forget to turn up?
The very fact that the BS was published as is  suggests to me that it was with the F&R Service's blessing. Why did it then question a technical issue of a document it had already nodded through?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.