B&B turned private residence after enforcement notice

[nunu]

Advice sought under RRO.

I issued an enforcement notice on a B&B.  Four storey property. Single staircase, open plan at base of staircase from the kitchen.  No fire doors or self closers on any room opening onto the staircase.  Interlinked smoke detection on each change of level landing only.  At the time the B&B did not have any guests.  The owner wrote to me stating that he would not have any guests until the work was complete.  To get to my question.....The owner has declared that this property is now solely a private residence.  I have therefore withdrawn the enforcement notice.  What steps would members take if they now believed that the property was being offered for paying sleeping accommodation?

Many thanks
Nunu

[CivvyFSO]

If evidence can be supplied to support it then I would go straight down the  prosecution route looking at both issues of;

a) People being put at risk by a failure to comply with the RRO
b) Giving false information

[nunu]

Thank you for your reply. This forum contains some fantastic debates, and is a great help in the world that is Fire Safety.  If I could just trouble you for a couple more answers/views I would be very grateful.
In order to obtain the evidence that guests are indeed staying there I would need to sit outside. Does the RRO allow for such surveillance/questions? Can I question these guests to ask if they are paying for the privilege ?   Would I need name and address of said guests?  Would they be required to attend court etc?

In anticipation, and raring to go....

[StuartH]

The RIPA Regs applies to an survellance being conducted by a Local Authority. This will almost certainly require an impact assessment to be conducted and would probably need to be authorised by a fire service senior officer, or even your County solicitor (depending on your policies and procedures).

Any survellance without the necessary assessments would be unlawful and leave any local authority open to prosecution itself.

[Mike Buckley]

Purely on another track, and I am not sure about the legal side, surely if the premises is being run as a B&B it will be subject to business rated council tax. If it reverts to domestic rates then it should be a domestic premise, if not it is still a comercial premise. If the first happens then the place is operating illegally and treasurers dept will be taking an interest. If the second applies then the enforcement notice must still stand.

I could be barking up the wrong tree but it could be worth lookng at.

[nunu]

Thank you again for the help and advice.  I will carry this one upwards, and see what the decision is.

[CivvyFSO]

S Hood is spot on regarding RIPA. To sit outside watching would be classed as 'directed surveillance' and it certainly would require permission. However, to turn up at any reasonable time and enter the premises is covered nicely under the RRO. Even if it turns out to be a domestic premises once you have entered, there is nothing in the RRFSO that says you cannot enter to see if the RRFSO applies or is being complied with.

There is nothing stopping you interviewing guests, it is unlikely that they would be required to attend court as a written statement could be taken/requested instead. Even a written record of a conversation between you and a guest, if written down properly in your own notebook, could be acceptable. If the 'guests' won't assist you then you can't do much about it, but if they 'assist' but knowingly lie to you (to any questions pertaining to the fire safety order) then they are committing an offence. (Albeit one that we are unlikely to take any action over)

If it is not being used as a domestic dwelling then I would get a prohibition/restriction notice on the upper floors until the issues are sorted out. (It might be reasonable to allow the ground or even the first floor to remain in use)

[nunu]

Thank you yet again.  I have a meeting arranged with the prosecutions manager.  The idea would be to gain authorisation for RIPA, (however, I do like the reasonable time for the RRO) conduct enquiries, collate the info, prohibit the top floors whilst starting the case for the prosecution. 

[StuartH]

It would be useful if you could update us via this forum with how matters progress and your experiences.

[nunu]

I'd be happy to post with any developments. I don't imagine it'll play like a fast action blockbuster movie though.  However, should I think you'll need popcorn and drinks, I'll warn you first! As regards RIPA, I think that may be riddled with problems. Specific training would be required etc. I'm not aware of FRS providing any such RIPA training. Imagine the cross examination on that!  I think the route should follow RRO.  To work in partnership with Trading Standards may be a good idea. Perhaps even fraud for financial gain. Thanks again.

[PhilB]

Any good prosecution course should cover RIPA.... code B of PACE is also probably relevant here. In my experience many brigades do not provide their inspectors with the appropriate tools to do the job.

[StuartH]

I have previously been involved in the survellance of a licensed premises in which my old brigade recieved information that the licensee was exceeding maximum occupancy figures, despite a prohibition notice being inforce restricting numbers due to fire safety concerns. Four of us sat in cars and buildings counting persons in and out (great way to spend a Friday night). The plan was that once numbers had been exceeded we would "Move in" !. On this particular evening he did not exceed his permitted occupancy numbers.

The application of RIPA, including obtaining the necessary authorities, was dealt with by our County Solicitor.

[PhilB]

There's no need to involve your county solicitors....there needs to be an authorising officer and enforcers need to know what type of surveilance is permitted.

[StuartH]

In my old little rural brigade the authorising officer for the fire service was the county solicitor. Every thing had to go through him, including any intention to prosecute. Guess this arrangement may be specific for the smaller brigades.

I guess they probably do things different down the smoke !

[PhilB]

FRS can only authorise directed surveillance, and the use of covert human intelligence sources.

Directed means that it is for a specific purpose not just hiding in a bush hoping you might spot a crime.

They cannot use devices other than human devices e.g. you can’t bug the phone to try and catch them taking bookings.

The surveillance can be covert but not intrusive, intrusive means taking place on any residential premises or in any private vehicle.

All activities must be authorised.

Circular No. 50/2004 , issued 22 November 2004 advised that the authorising officer must be of either Divisional Officer 2 or Principal Fire Control Officer or above. Obviously this guidance is a bit out of date regarding brigade titles.


Where a request for surveillance is requested authorising officers must be satisfied as regards each request that an adequate case can be made for the particular activity sought.

The Authorising Officer must also be satisfied that the risks of outside interference have been properly considered.

Outside interferece is where a third party’s privacy will be interfered with by the proposed surveillance activity. For example, where an officer takes photographs, or observes one or more innocent parties.