Chemicals

[Mushy]

In a hospital they are storing Hydrogen Peroxide and Peroxyacetic mixture in a service corridor. This is an oxydising agent and has the potential to spontaneously ignite when in contact with combustible materials and is being stored in 10 litre plstic containers. This has been flagged up in the FRA with no action taken by the hospital...apparentley there is no storage space anywhere!

I am aware that this is a responsibility within the Fire Risk assessment to flag this up but isn't the Health and Safety still the lead authority with regards to chemicals?

[kurnal]

The COSHH Regs cover the selection, management, storage, handling and safe use of such chemicals but in relation to general fire precautions the Fire Safety Order requires the responsible Person to take account of any such substances and the consequences for the safety of relevant persons in the event of a fire.

If there is a risk that these would exacerbate a fire or affect the safety of persons as a result of a fire then the Fire Safety Order will be used to control that risk. Any issues in this area may be symptomatic of a weakness in the existing controls under the COSHH Regs though.

[Mike Buckley]

Yes I agree with Kurnal.

For the sake of arguement what would you do if instead of these chemicals, they were storing plastic cans full of petrol?

An assessment under COSHH could say that the storage and handling did not constitute a hazard to the health of the employees (sealed containers etc.) it could even be argued under DSEAR that if the containers were only being stored in the area (not opened or dispensed), the risk would still be low.

Any IOs who would not be running for a prohibition order?

[Mr. P]

But a store must be fit for the purpose surely?

[nearlythere]

But a store must be fit for the purpose surely?

As Mike is alluding to proving that there is a risk from a hazard can be difficult. It would be much easier if the chemicals were not in suitable vessels or containers but I'm assuming they are.
I think that barristers would have great fun with witnesses with something like this in court.
We are surrounded by all manner of life and limb threatening substances seperated from us only by the thinnist of materials but are generally happy with that level of containment and protection.

[CivvyFSO]

I would say that it would be reasonably practicable NOT to have dangerous substances in what will be part of an escape route.

[nearlythere]

I would say that it would be reasonably practicable NOT to have dangerous substances in what will be part of an escape route.

It should depend on what you consider "dangerous" to mean CFSO? A hazardous substance in an appropriate container and not subject to exposure to a fire may not be dangerous but could a risk. Then you have to consider if it constitutes a tolerable risk. Maybe. Maybe not.
Is it dangerous to have cars and lorries regularily pass only a metre or so from you on the roads at up to 140 MPH or sometimes more? Happens nearly every day to you, me and millions of other vehicle drivers. It's very risky and sometimes dangerous but it's a tolerable risk, is it not?

[CivvyFSO]

A dangerous substance as defined in the RRFSO.

[nearlythere]

Is petrol dangerous? Yes, most would very likely reply.
If petrol is dangerous why are untrained persons of varying degrees of intellect, ability and competance permitted to remove up to 100 litres of it from an underground storage tank using a pump, expose it the atmosphere and insert it another tank in a road vehicle.
Is petrol dangerous? Maybe not that dangerous afterall depending on how it is stored and used.

[CivvyFSO]

Are we taking devil's advocate to a whole new level now?

Petrol is highly flammable by virtue of its flashpoint.

"dangerous substance" means—
(a) a substance or preparation which meets the criteria in the approved classification and labelling guide for classification as a substance or preparation which is explosive, oxidising, extremely flammable, highly flammable or flammable, whether or not that substance or preparation is classified under the CHIP Regulations;

Therefore petrol is a dangerous substance by definition.
The peroxide is also a dangerous substance by definition.  Articles 12 & 16 apply.

I think we are getting too far from the point and only looking at the risk of fire posed by the substance itself. The main issue to me is that even if the flammables are stored sealed in nice plastic or metal containers, there is the risk of that substance being involved with a fire that originates elsewhere.  And the thing to bear in mind with the peroxide is that in the event of an accident rupturing the vessel, it is a potential ignition source and a source of oxygen, all rolled into one.

[Mushy]

Thanks for your replies fellas

there is about 400 litres of the stuff in 10 litre plastic containers stored on wooden pallets in a 'service corridor'. Now this corridor has offices off it as well as supplies, (stores) post room, laundry, sewing room and mortuary. The corridor itself is now an overflow store from supplies who have had storage space taken off them to convert it to a conference room. the corridor is about 50 metres long with stacked up boxes all the length of one of the walls.
Any fire in this corridor....with the aid of the propelling chemicals will be catastrophic

This is the general description

A colourless liquid. Contact may severely irritate the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. Decomposes violently on contact with many metals. Contact with combustible materials may result in spontaneous ignition. Under prolonged exposure to fire or heat containers may rupture violently and rocket.

[Gasmeter]

It clearly presents a risk;as all the guidance says, "if the hazard can be removed, do so".  If it can't be removed take measure to minimise it.

[Mushy]

Hi all

We have progress, in respect to the afforenamed chemicals  (sounds like a police officers notebook

They are to be removed from the corridor and placed in a 'fit for purpose' store

anyone know what would be 'fit for purpose'...ie metal/bunded etc

cheers

[CivvyFSO]

"Decomposes violently on contact with many metals."

Perhaps not a metal container?

[Mushy]

yep true but also...

"Contact with combustible materials may result in spontaneous ignition"

what else is not combustible?

I think that in their plastic containers...that are in boxes...that are away from any malicious tampering or accidental damage by the porters with their the mobile storage cages... will have a low risk of leaking...er maybe