BS 5830-1:2002 +A2:2008 Annexe A (P.119

[novascot]

What are the views regarding this? At the head of the page it states that "this annexe is not intended to constitute recommendations".
I posted the following on another thread:

The Guidance Document for Places of Entertainment and Assembly in Scotland has recently been amended. Part of the amendments have taken BS 5830-1:2002 +A2:2008 Annexe A (P.119) and made up the following:

3. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained inaccordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L1 system should be provided for complex or large places of assembly or entertainment or where the premises can accommodate more than 300 people.

4. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L2 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 100 and 300 people.
5. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L3 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 60 and 100 people.
6. In smaller premises that can accommodate no more than 60 people it may be appropriate to install a category M system in accordance with BS 5839: Part 1.

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

The bold type is mine. FSO's are using this as requirements and not making the difference between pubs and clubs. This gives the ludicrous situation where a pub measuring 20m x 30m can legally have 300 persons and the FSO's can and in some cases do, ask for an L1 system.
This would make this small open plan pub have a more onerous Fire Alarm system than sleeping accomodation.

How would you deal with this?

[nearlythere]

Just remind me someone. Are the councils the enforcement authorities in Scotland for entertainment premises like in N.I.? And if so, do they take advice from the FB in relation to Fire Safety for the grant or renewal of an entertainment license?

[nearlythere]

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

With absolutely no offence intended to my high/lowland friends, as this is a spectacular event and I love 80 shillings, in the Edinburgh Military Tattoo how do they intend to automatically mute 60 odd sets of marching bagpipes and drums? Maybe buried tripwires rising automatically from the ground? Would this muting process happen quickly enough?
Views encouraged.

[Wiz]

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

With absolutely no offence intended to my high/lowland friends, as this is a spectacular event and I love 80 shillings, in the Edinburgh Military Tattoo how do they intend to automatically mute 60 odd sets of marching bagpipes and drums? Maybe buried tripwires rising automatically from the ground? Would this muting process happen quickly enough?
Views encouraged.

Good observation, Nearlythere!

They say that the definition of a Scottish 'gentleman' is of someone who can play the bagpipes.....but doesn't!

I'd volunteer be the one that raises the tripwire!

Obviously, the serious answer is all in the word 'amplified'.

And anyway, the thought of amplified bagpipes is very distressing!

[novascot]

Much as a discussion on bagpipes and beer would be enlightening for most, the topic was regarding the F&RS using the guides as a done deal. The fact that the Guide is a misrepresentation of Annexe A in BS5839-1:2002+ A2:2008 should be addressed.
Would anybody on here require an L1 system for a single storey building that measures 20M x 31M where we can have in excess of 300 people?

[novascot]

Just remind me someone. Are the councils the enforcement authorities in Scotland for entertainment premises like in N.I.? And if so, do they take advice from the FB in relation to Fire Safety for the grant or renewal of an entertainment license?

Yes. But this was on an audit visit.

[nearlythere]

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

With absolutely no offence intended to my high/lowland friends, as this is a spectacular event and I love 80 shillings, in the Edinburgh Military Tattoo how do they intend to automatically mute 60 odd sets of marching bagpipes and drums? Maybe buried tripwires rising automatically from the ground? Would this muting process happen quickly enough?
Views encouraged.

Good observation, Nearlythere!

They say that the definition of a Scottish 'gentleman' is of someone who can play the bagpipes.....but doesn't!

I'd volunteer be the one that raises the tripwire!

Obviously, the serious answer is all in the word 'amplified'.

And anyway, the thought of amplified bagpipes is very distressing!

If there was one piper thats fine. The fact that there have to use a number of them to amplify the sound would put them in the "amplified" definition, would it not?

[partymarty007]

Just remind me someone. Are the councils the enforcement authorities in Scotland for entertainment premises like in N.I.? And if so, do they take advice from the FB in relation to Fire Safety for the grant or renewal of an entertainment license?

NT

Statutory duties in relation to premises licensing provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 are placed on the Local Authority (LA).

Part 3 of The Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 introduced significant changes in fire safety enforcement in premises requiring a licence. Under Section 71of the 2005 Act, the Licensing Authority can no longer impose fire safety terms, conditions or restrictions in connection with the issue of a licence and all fire safety enforcement must be dealt with by the ”enforcing authority” as defined in Section 61(9) of the 2005 Act.

For most premises, this will be the FRS for the area.


Following these legislative changes it is clear that:

•   licensing conditions relating to fire safety requirements are not acceptable, and

•   The LA under the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 has a continued statutory duty to consider matters of public safety (includes fire safety concerns) in deciding whether it is appropriate to grant a licence.

So the way forward is MOUs between FRS and LA to ensure working together on this overlap.

[Phoenix]

The Guidance Document for Places of Entertainment and Assembly in Scotland has recently been amended. Part of the amendments have taken BS 5830-1:2002 +A2:2008 Annexe A (P.119) and made up the following:

3. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained inaccordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L1 system should be provided for complex or large places of assembly or entertainment or where the premises can accommodate more than 300 people.
4. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L2 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 100 and 300 people.
5. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L3 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 60 and 100 people.
6. In smaller premises that can accommodate no more than 60 people it may be appropriate to install a category M system in accordance with BS 5839: Part 1.
7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

This is way over the top. 

And you don't need a place as big as 20m x 30m to get into L1 territory.

My village hall is about 10m by 20m.  That's 200 sq m.  Each year a few functions are held here where alcohol is served and music is played.  Allowing for the dance area we have about 150 sq m at 0.5 sq m per person and that gives 300 people.  Add the ones on the dance floor and we're over 300.  The place is just one big room with a couple of toilets and a typical assortment of other odd rooms.  Like a lot of similar halls it is festooned with double door exits from the hall area - even the most pessimistic view would give it an exit capacity of about 600.  And if it was in Scotland, it would need an L1 system!

That's nonsense. 

Who published this "Guidance Document for Places of Entertainment and Assembly in Scotland"?  That's not a rhetorical question - really, who published it?

Stu

[Wiz]

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

With absolutely no offence intended to my high/lowland friends, as this is a spectacular event and I love 80 shillings, in the Edinburgh Military Tattoo how do they intend to automatically mute 60 odd sets of marching bagpipes and drums? Maybe buried tripwires rising automatically from the ground? Would this muting process happen quickly enough?
Views encouraged.

Good observation, Nearlythere!

They say that the definition of a Scottish 'gentleman' is of someone who can play the bagpipes.....but doesn't!

I'd volunteer be the one that raises the tripwire!

Obviously, the serious answer is all in the word 'amplified'.

And anyway, the thought of amplified bagpipes is very distressing!

If there was one piper thats fine. The fact that there have to use a number of them to amplify the sound would put them in the "amplified" definition, would it not?

Good point, Nearlythere.

Obviously one set of bagpipes is enough for anybody. The use of multiple sets is just unnecessary amplification!

[kurnal]

Yet another case of what was originally clearly intended as guidance being taken on board by other organisations and being used in a prescriptive manner?

[CivvyFSO]

how do they intend to automatically mute 60 odd sets of marching bagpipes and drums? Maybe buried tripwires rising automatically from the ground? Would this muting process happen quickly enough?
Views encouraged.

Throw a penny onto the stage.