Dry rising mains

[afterburner]

Faint echoes of 'stand by to slip'  .................

[Clevelandfire 3]

Slip a disk?

[xan]

Thanks for all the comments-been out of office fo a few days.
This building is very tall and skinny-so furthest point is ony 48m.
My version of 5588-5:2004 does say in table 4 riser required in building 11-18m, but maybe as that BS is defunct,we should ignore that.
Developer is proposing residential system with water tank.
Take on board comments about not converting an unsuitable build-the existing tower is having a new external staircase being built-but only to the 17.5m mark.Planning won't allow it to go any higher,plus the developer is running out of time.I don't have a lot of sympathy,but I am not the AI,so the decision at this stage is not up to me.There are other constraints as well as this is a Government directed project.I am quite comfortable with the Sprinkler proposal-providing it is a suitable system.

[CivvyFSO]

My version of 5588-5:2004 does say in table 4 riser required in building 11-18m, but maybe as that BS is defunct,we should ignore that.

It does indeed say that in that BS.

My point being that if you comply with ADB, you almost certainly comply with Building Regs... Since ADB does not require the fire fighting shaft in a building of that purpose group at the 11-18m height, then there is no reason to go anywhere near BS5588 part 4.

However this building is clearly above the 17.5m that is being mentioned, so some compensation is needed.

FWIW, I personally think that a sprinkler system will do a very good job of compensating. I appreciate that they have a lot of kit to carry up the stairs, and we don't want them knackered before they are even entering the fire compartment. But I believe the real hard work starts when they are entering the heat and smoke, and the sprinkler system should ensure that they are not put under such physical and mental strain as they would be in a compartment with an uncontrolled fire.

[jokar]

Interseting point about Sprinklers, the determination in June on there use in residential accommodation in different circumstances I agree, leaves it open to debate about their usefulness.

[CivvyFSO]

The determination you mention (if it is the one I am thinking of) is specifically regarding B1 and inner-room bedrooms. The main point of the determination (There have been a few similar determinations btw) was that passing through a fire affected room, even with sprinklers, is simply not as safe as the code-compliant escape corridor/hallway. (I am not saying I agree or disagree with it, but that was the crux of the decision)

Here we are talking about the people who have to walk into the building when the fire has been going for some time and it is untenable for anybody else. Even fully kitted up, the firefighter is under a great deal of physical stress while in the heat. CLG and BDAG have done some published research into this. Something minimising the risk of flashover or even simply lowering the temperature of the room has got to be a great bonus for the firefighters.

I am sure any of the operational or ex-operational people here can explain how long a BA set lasts in good conditions and how long the same set lasts in severe heat. O₂ uptake is a good indication of physical stress.

In fact, we could temporarily ignore B5 and simply ask one of the operational guys what they would prefer;

a) A walk up a stair with the high pressure hosereel with a sprinklered fire at the end of it.
or
b) A walk up the same stair, with a dry riser to connect to and an unsprinklered fire.

[kurnal]

This was my earlier point. If the hosereel is in range (usually total of 60m on the drum, though some brigades have shorter these days) then assuming the sprinklers have done their job and suppressed the fire, the hosereel is the best tool to finish it off, hauled aloft.
Having to carry a roll of 25m delivery hose and branchup to that height, unroll and charge the full 25m length in the confined space of the landing before you can safely enter the flat invoved is a nightmare. Normally this would be done at a bridgehead  one or two floors below the fire.

Hence my other point. If domestic sprinklers are installed from a tank supply  then they will only work for 10 minutes. The water will have run out long before the brigade arrive and if the fire is shielded say under a table it will be up and away.  If a residential system is installed from a tank supply at least the system will work for 30 minutes giving the brigade chance to set up and enter.

If the sprinklers are from a mains supply either will be fine.

[Dinnertime Dave]

I’ve watched this thread with interest and would like to add my thoughts-
 
We have successfully argued that residential sprinklers should be installed in a development due the excessive distances. However, where there are access problems you need also to consider a fire occurring in the communal areas. Therefore, best practice would dictate that sprinklers are provided in these areas too. 

I have heard that some metropolitan brigades have used residential sprinklers where access problems existed up to 90m 

Also, 48metres is only 3m in excess of the ADB would I be that worried bearing in mind the length of a hose reel?

All our appliances have shorter hose reels (54/55m) due to an increase in the diameter of the hose.

[jokar]

NICS also has a say in how firefighters are contolled at a fire in high rise buildings now as well.

[kurnal]

Just another thought- all our discussions about sprinklers, rising mains, hosereels and main jets are irrelevant if the crews arriving at a working job are not aware of the fire strategy for the building.

A riser inlet is obvious on arrival- but how would  the message be given to operational crews that sprinklers had been installed in lieu? ................Its a long walk up those stairs - what would you carry to save your legs?

[CivvyFSO]

I totally agree. It is great that we know that the hosereel will reach every part of the flats, and that it should be enough to deal with the expected fire, but if they don't have that information they might simply start laying hose lengths down.

With the influx of mobile data terminals, where accurate information can be given direct to any attending crews from a terminal in the appliance, we should be able to ensure that this information is available.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Kurnal the answer to the question should be 'firemanship' although I think the PC phrase is 'firecraft' realistically though I feel Civvy is right - MDT. However, my brigade is struggling to put the info we have into the agreed format.   

[xan]

I totally agree. It is great that we know that the hosereel will reach every part of the flats, and that it should be enough to deal with the expected fire, but if they don't have that information they might simply start laying hose lengths down.

With the influx of mobile data terminals, where accurate information can be given direct to any attending crews from a terminal in the appliance, we should be able to ensure that this information is available.

Yes I have carried hose up 10 floors in B.A. (many moons ago) because there was no lift available and then fought a fire,of course i was much younger and fitter then.If i turned up at this building,with my knowledge,I would probably be thinking wheres the riser?However,most Ops guys would look for one,and if it ain't there just get on with it,and maybe question why afterwards.There should be a sprinkler alarm operating anyway-so that might give them a clue on the action they should take.Yes we can put info on turn out systems-but do they aleways read it all?