Author Topic: High Level Point Detection  (Read 9062 times)

Offline Gasmeter

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High Level Point Detection
« on: October 05, 2009, 02:28:40 PM »
In a large hall with a pitched roof in a listed building, there are three smoke detectors at ridge level which is 15.7m high.  I know this isn't what one would choose, but that's what there is; I'd be very grateful for any comments about how effective they might be, bearing in mind stratification etc.

Offline kurnal

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 05:13:19 PM »
Exactly. But we can't really predict how it would perform. The detectors in the roof may be better than none at all, and I guess it all depends on lots of things- the fire loading- ie contents and arrangement,  potential rate of fire growth, the volume of  ceiling space, the pitch of the roof, the location of detectors in relation to dead space as a function of the angle of the ridge, temperature gradients due to artificial heating and weather effects to name a few.  Certainly unlikely to give warning of smouldering fires on a hot day :)

Have you access to a computer that will run FDS or similar to see what modelling would suggest?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 05:15:41 PM by kurnal »

Offline mw

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 07:19:58 PM »
You could get a rough idea of activation times using a zone model instead of the more complicated CFD package. The NIST webisite has a package called FASTLITE that includes just such a rough and ready piece of software that is not too diffficult to use (Both FDS abd FASTLITE are free to download but I would not recommend using FDS without some training). At the height you mention and depending on the geometry of the hall activation is likely to be a problem, not to mention issues such as stratification of the smoke due to cooling before it reaches the ceiling. On the plus side, you have a sizeable smoke reservoir that could be included in an engineering solution!

 :)

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 08:38:36 PM »
In a large hall with a pitched roof in a listed building, there are three smoke detectors at ridge level which is 15.7m high.  I know this isn't what one would choose, but that's what there is; I'd be very grateful for any comments about how effective they might be, bearing in mind stratification etc.
It's not necessarily a case of not what one would choose - it's 5 metres higher than recommended in the standard.
Beam detection if possible (I know this isn't always the case if it's all ornate roof trusses etc.) or a high sensitivity aspirating system would both within the height recommendations.

Offline Wiz

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 09:16:23 AM »
Without wanting to sound too pedantic, you should just get away with point smoke detectors in an area with a roof apex at 15.7m if it is a Cat P system with 5 minute brigade attendance!

The general limit for the above is  is 15m, so if you site the detector 600mm below the highest point then you are then only 100mm away from fully complying. Then by applying the C.T. theory of 'ain't writ in stone/use commonsense' to the 100mm difference, then it is probably assessed as of 'no concern' and it becomes an agreed variation.

Obviously, if the Category is L, then the above doesn't apply because the detector would be over 5m higher than recommended mounting height. In this case, as Buzz says, a beam detector or very high sensitivity aspirating system is the option. However, the liklihood of stratification of the smoke should be considered, and additional beam detectors installed at lower levels if found necessary.

Offline David Rooney

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 10:56:00 AM »
I'd go with the Wiz Factor.... presumably there are manual call points in the hall to satisfy Life Safety.

If it's open plan then the detectors would't appear to be contributing very much to the safety of any occupants and would be considered for property protection only....
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Offline Gasmeter

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 11:01:18 AM »
Thanks very much for your comments; extremely useful  :)  The hall is an integral part of a larger building, it's an L1 system and the hall is wood panelled up to about 7m with timber trussing, it's open plan, used for wedding receptions and seminars etc.  

I looked at an aspirating system but installation would be a nightmare because of the listing, a beam grid would be too costly with similar installation problems, but I think it's the only technically satisfactory solution.  If occupied, obviously a fire would soon be discovered by the occupants, I'm more worried in terms of property protection, about a smouldering fire during the wee hours.

I think doing CFD for it might be worthwhile, but I'm not very good at sums; I'll see if someone will pay to have it done for me  ;D

Offline John Webb

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 11:11:46 AM »
If any calculations show the potential of stratification, I would be inclined to think in terms of an aspirating system. Possibly Main pipe at the top of the wall panelling with the sampling tubes running up the trusses to different heights or something similar?
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 11:36:38 AM »
Why not look at installing the aspirating system in 3/4" inside diameter polished copper pipe as this may be more aesthetically pleasing,or if you can source PVC in a suitable colour (with the correct characteristics as per design recommendations) then it miht't be out of the question.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 11:51:26 AM »
Any guide or standard gives general recommendations that are designed to provide an adequate level of safety in virtually all cases.  Any particular building has its own set of circumstances that can demand slightly different solutions to those given in the standard.

In this building you might choose to determine what the detection is there to achieve.  You might want to look at the fire loading in the space below the detectors.  Any fire that gives out a decent amount of heat will be detected with only a small delay.  Any fire that sits and smoulders with very little heat production will have the detection system at the mercy of the ambient air currents in the space.

In a hall like this, let us suppose that there is some fire loading but nothing that is likely to cause a rapid flaming fire.  The most likely fire scenario will start with an incubation period of some (difficult to determine) length of time.  The current point detectors are likely not to detect the incubating fire for some time but, if the fire becomes established, then the heat generated will carry the smoke to the detectors.  If the fire does not become well established but continues to smoulder and if the ambient air is still then the stratification mentioned earlier may occur.

Now, if you think about what the detection is trying to achieve, you can make a judgement as to whether the current provision is adequate. 

Would the undetected stratified smoke layer from the smouldering fire threaten anyone's means of escape?  Would it threaten a protected staircase?  Unlikely.  Would it threaten a route through the space from an inner room?  Possible.  (Are the occupants awake or might they be asleep?) 

Would the delay in detecting the fire that becomes established threaten a protected staircase or a route through the space?  I'm sure you'd agree that it is very unrealistic to believe that a fire might come anywhere close to threatening a correctly constructed protected route before smoke reaches the detectors.  Could this fire scenario threaten the route through the space from an inner room?  It is likely that the delay in the detection actuating will be more than off-set by the benefits gained by the high ceiling.  But there is the potential for concern here.

If the occupants are awake and if there are no inner rooms why would anyone not notice the fire before their means of escape was threatened.

If the system is for property protection then you have to think about whether you're protecting the contents or the structure or both and about the additional damage that is likely to be inflicted by the delay in alarm actuation.

There is a simple zone model that illustrates the sort of level that stratified smoke attains.



This is really most applicable for larger fires but if we plug in figures for a small fire and a large temperature gradient (say, a 50kW fire and a temperature gradient of 0.3K/m (i.e. approx 5 degrees hotter at detector level than at ground level)) we can get an idea of where the smoke might stratify.  This gives about 23m for this fire.  Reduce the fire to 25kW and the smoke will attain 19m.  Even if the fire is only 10kW the smoke will reach 15m.

This model is not precise but it's a best guess without resorting to CFD.

An aspirating or beam system might be quicker but do the potential gains outstrip the definite costs.

Incidentally, how do you reach these detectors to service them?  That might be a significant consideration when weighing up alternatives.

Stu


Offline Phoenix

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 12:03:11 PM »
Just read your second post, Gasmeter.  As you're thinking of property protection, think of this.  

The difference that an aspirating system could make could be the difference between the FRS being alerted and turning up when the fire is still incubating (smouldering) or the alarm not being raised until the fire becomes established and the FRS turning up when the building is going nicely.

I take it that the alarm is monitored at all hours by some means.

I'd recommend the upgrade, not as an urgent matter, but certainly as a planned improvement.

Incidentally, CFD would be a costly exercise, particularly within a heavily trussed space.

Stu

« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 12:18:20 PM by Phoenix »

Offline Gasmeter

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 01:57:51 PM »
Thanks for your help Phoenix, my preferred solution is aspirating detection with discreet pipework.  I'm confident that occupants can escape safely and quickly, but I feel that risk of heritage loss is intolerable.  The FRS can be expected to attend within five minutes, so the fundamental issue is getting the earliest possible warning.  Finding the money is another matter  :(

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: High Level Point Detection
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 02:16:03 PM »
Is the hall a thoroughfare within part of an escape route (ie - do you have to pass through it to reach the exit/escape route).If it isn't then you could look at changing to L2,covering everywhere else and have the hall as P2,specifically for that area (L2/P2).This would then permit your current installed point detection height if brigade attendance is within 5 minutes.Your battery stand by requirements may differ however depending on occupancy.