Key operated locks on Guest bedrooms

[Foggy]

I would very much appreciate your views on the acceptability of locks on guest bedrooms in hotles/B&B's and the like, which require the use of a key to unlock from the inside - I am of the opinion they are no more acceptable than a locked  fire exit. However, my view on this matter has met with a degree of oposition from some quarters.

Family in guest bedroom go to bed & lock the door - family wake up and hear the fire alarm, or worse still wake to find the TV on fire, can't find the key - can't open the door - is it a door that was required to be utilised in the event of an emergency - Yes - was it easily and immediately available - no.

I may have just scripted the answer the my question but then again maybe I've got all wrong!!!
Many thanks

[kurnal]

I too have encountered this from time to time, I dont see it as serious as a locked fire exit because it is only the occupants of a single room that would be affected. But I do agree that it is most undesirable and always recommend an alternative arrangement to avoid the use of a key.

Where there is an over riding requirement not to alter the door or its fittings- very rare- some stately homes have this arrangement where rooms are let to guests- then I always recommend specific guidance to each guest, the provision of a hook on which to hang the key next to the door and a torch also on the hook. The hassle of this sometimes persuades the RP to change the locks where previously he has argued it is impossible!.

[Midland Retty]

Keys can get lost, people can struggle to find keys in poor light conditions, keys can break in the locks, during a panic people can drop keys and sods law will dicticate that they will drop in the most inaccessible place where people can't retireve them etc etc.

So I'm not keen on keys whatsoever. Far better a  thumb-turn / nightlatch type lock (or similar) be installed to give residents security but also safe egress if so required.

I disagree with Kurnal -  even where listed buildings are concerned there are plenty of products on the market nowadays which can be used to replace existing locks approved by local conservation authorities.

 

[CivvyFSO]

I wouldn't even say I am simply 'not keen'. I would happily enforce thumbturns or escape mortice locks every time, for all the reasons Rt Hon Retty gave.

[kurnal]

Ok we differ.  

Just for arguments sake I guess you would be ok with a key operated lock should you stay in a holiday flat or cottage, but would not accept this on your hotel bedroom door?

[FSO]

I wouldn't even say I am simply 'not keen'. I would happily enforce thumbturns or escape mortice locks every time, for all the reasons Rt Hon Retty gave.

Totally agree

[CivvyFSO]

Ok we differ.  

Just for arguments sake I guess you would be ok with a key operated lock should you stay in a holiday flat or cottage, but would not accept this on your hotel bedroom door?

What I accept as a customer/user and what I accept as an enforcing officer are two very separate things.

[jokar]

Shouldn't they be the same for all good fire safety reasons?

[CivvyFSO]

No. My reasons being, if I am in a holiday cottage or even my own house, I am in control of where I keep the key, I am in control of knowing what we will do if the smoke alarm goes off, I am in control of whether doors remain open or not and of whether things are switched off before bed. As an enforcement officer I have to take into account all the people who don't know or give a damn about fire safety.

[Phoenix]

But looking at it from kurnal's perspective, Civvy, I think you are blanketting all building users as incapable of looking after their own fire safety matters whilst you look upon yourself as having a uniquely high capability in such matters.  Maybe, just maybe, a building user might be capable of taking all the fire precautionary measures that you yourself would take and maybe they can document it so that others, a fire risk assessor for example, can see the high standards they attain.  I think this is where your logic and kurnal's coincide to illustrate that the thumbturn solution should not be prescribed universally.  Universal application of any prescribed solution will often be an injustice for the better, more fire safety conscious people out there.

Stu

[CivvyFSO]

I am not blanketting them all. Just making allowances for the ones who don't consider such things. Nobody can say that everyone who uses their hotel will make sure their key is in a safe place. Even if they did say it, I wouldn't believe them and would err on the side of caution.

I do look upon myself as having a high capability regarding such matters as looking after my own fire safety, not unique, but high. Due 100% to the nature of my job.

[Midland Retty]

Ok accepted a holiday cottage with a family unit renting it is very much like a domestic scenario and they would thus have full control over what goes on in the building as the Very Hon. CivvyFSO points out.

Plus they will have access to most if not all of the property therefore if they couldn't find their keys for whatever reason or couldnt make their escape another way they may be able to take refuge in another part of the cottage and await the fire service 

But keys would not be acceptable in a hotel or B&B for the reasons I already mentioned

[FSO]

Interesting what you say there Sir Retty, and Civvy.

I understand the principle of where you are coming from about the holiday let however, the premises still fall under the FSO and I would like demonstation that all precautions have been taken as far as reasonbly practicable.

It does say clearly in the sleeping accomodation guide that keys are unlikely to be acceptable, so there is the starting point.

I would suggest that the cost vs proportionality argument could be used to have thumb turns installed (If reasonbly practicable).

[CivvyFSO]

Here is another starting point from the RRFSO itself:

emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may require to use them in an emergency;

That is preceeded by the usual "where necessary", but I say that in about 100% of cases where you have members of the public in the building, it is necessary.

I appreciate where the people are coming from who try to justify where it may be appropriate to accept keys, I just don't agree with them.

[Phoenix]

I agree with you really Civvy, well 99% agree.  I was only chipping in because you seemed to indicate that you might accept a different standard as a user to what you expect as an enforcer.  I'm not saying that I'm not prone to double standards as well, I guess it's human nature ("do as I say, not as I do").  Something for us all to watch out for.

Stu