Rosepark Nursing Home Fire

[jayjay]

For those interested in this incident the Fatal Accident Inquiry is underway in Motherwell.

Snipits of information are starting to appear in news articles. ( Do Google News on Rosepark)
Not surprising are details of a number of bedroom doors having defective self closers.
Those who do not advocate self closers on bedroom doors in care homes should follow this inquiry.
Witness reports state that fire and smoke did spread down the corridor.

[wee brian]

Are you suggsting the problem was the lack of closers or that the doors were open?

[jokar]

The homely atmosphere approach.  Don't forget that for a lot of people care homes are their homes and guidance of the day suggested that doors could be without closers to allow people to see and speak to each other.

[nearlythere]

No doubt the enquiry chairman will make recommendations which will lead to homes being required to revert to institution style and turned into virtual prisons for the residents with every room being treated like an isolation ward. Can't see sprinklers being recommended as this will put many homes out of business with health trusts having to find accommodation for many thousands of elderly people.

[Clevelandfire 3]

here we go the cries of  "prisons" "residents cant talk to one another" "institutionalised" and "isolation" are back again.

Well shock horror stand back in amazement lets keep it in context shall we. What about another thread which is running concurrently where most people agree fire doors should be in the closed position in the event of a fire. There are several ways to achieve this by something dead clever and magic called risk assessment. Free swing devices, hold open devices ever heard of those? Sorry of course I was forgetting care homes cant afford stuff like that on the pitence they get from pensioners who have had to sell their own homes to afford to be able to go into care can they. WHat about if theres aenough staff they close the doors in the event of fire what about doors only have to be closed at night.

[jokar]

I think you will find that Scotland have already absorbed the idea of sprinklers in care homes and Cleveland you are right swing free closers work very well and are a useful addition to the care home package.  Depends on the evacuation strategy of course and what actuallt fits the resident type.

[nearlythere]

Course we have to bear in mind that persons in residential care have to eat, the staffing levels are nearly one to one and, despite what many seem to think, the owners and employees  need a wage to live on.
Are there many residential homes around which survive on dedication, free labour and charitable donations?
The reason why elderly care was turfed out to the private sector was that the trusts did not want to be burdened with the expense of having to provide it.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Nah I dont buy into that Nearlythere. i accept there are nursing homes out there who do rely on donations and the like, the vast majority dont but like to plead poverty. I spoke to one care home owner who told me quite openly that the business was very lucrative. They may pay their staff low wages ill accept that but the top brass make a tidy penny and can afford to pay for upgrades and improvements if they wanted to. I remeber the days when CSCI used to weild their axe on poor performing care homes, it made the bosses spend some cash they were always able to find it somewhere.

[nearlythere]

Nah I dont buy into that Nearlythere. i accept there are nursing homes out there who do rely on donations and the like, the vast majority dont but like to plead poverty. I spoke to one care home owner who told me quite openly that the business was very lucrative. They may pay their staff low wages ill accept that but the top brass make a tidy penny and can afford to pay for upgrades and improvements if they wanted to. I remeber the days when CSCI used to weild their axe on poor performing care homes, it made the bosses spend some cash they were always able to find it somewhere.

It's quite a lucrative little number running a food shop C3, Tescos, Sainsburys, Morrisons etc. but you never hear of them being lambasted for taking advantage of people's need to eat food.

[Mike Buckley]

No they just buy their stuff from the cheapest source and the smaller farmers go out of business because they can't compete with the factory fams!

[Clevelandfire 3]

Nah I dont buy into that Nearlythere. i accept there are nursing homes out there who do rely on donations and the like, the vast majority dont but like to plead poverty. I spoke to one care home owner who told me quite openly that the business was very lucrative. They may pay their staff low wages ill accept that but the top brass make a tidy penny and can afford to pay for upgrades and improvements if they wanted to. I remeber the days when CSCI used to weild their axe on poor performing care homes, it made the bosses spend some cash they were always able to find it somewhere.

It's quite a lucrative little number running a food shop C3, Tescos, Sainsburys, Morrisons etc. but you never hear of them being lambasted for taking advantage of people's need to eat food.

Yeah and if my auntie had nuts she'd be my uncle. It aint quite the same argument. You made out care homes were cash strapped, I simply told you that aint the case Nearlythere.

[wee brian]

It's lucrative if you are running a home for relatively wealthy types who had a big house etc. The other end of the business isn't quite so profitable, but just as necessary.

You can't just regulate the posh ones so you have to keep affordability in mind.

[CivvyFSO]

Wee Brian, it may be different in Scotland, but in England when Mr. Average who has worked all his life, and owns his own regular sized house ends up needing residential care, he or his family have to pay about £400-600 per week, for a tiny room, with a few minimum wage 'carers' milling around. This often involves selling the persons house that they have been working all their life to pay off, and then just watching that pot of money dwindle away. Once the person has no more money left, that 400-600 is paid for by the state.

It is not just the homes where the wealthy go where it is a lucrative business. (Not in England anyway)

[nearlythere]

Wee Brian, it may be different in Scotland, but in England when Mr. Average who has worked all his life, and owns his own regular sized house ends up needing residential care, he or his family have to pay about £400-600 per week, for a tiny room, with a few minimum wage 'carers' milling around. This often involves selling the persons house that they have been working all their life to pay off, and then just watching that pot of money dwindle away. Once the person has no more money left, that 400-600 is paid for by the state.

It is not just the homes where the wealthy go where it is a lucrative business. (Not in England anyway)

It isn't the homes which require the sale of the house Civvy. It's the Trust. One thing you can be sure is that the elderly will get better treatment in a private home than a Trust hospital. Trusts are very good at ensuring others comply with any care regulations.

[Midland Retty]

Hi NT

I'm not sure I understand your comment about Trust Hospitals.

In England hospitals dont provide passive care in the way Nursing and residential homes do. (Patients obviously do convalesce in hospital but it is only normally for shorter periods of time).

If long term, non surgical care is required patients are normally admitted into rehab centres, hopsices, or nursing and residential care homes whom provide palliative and other non emergency medical care as required.

In the old days most local authorities and primary care trusts used to operate their own nursing and residential care services, if that is what you mean, however many have now closed down and the resources are instead provided by the private sector.

As Civvy points out many residents have to shell out over £400 + per week (not a month) thats twenty grand a year from one resident. Translate that to a 40 bed care home and youre looking at over £800,000 + per year before tax and overheads.

It is a growing sector, and just goes to show that there is obviously profit to be made, for instance one private care organisation I know of has just opened 5 new care homes in the Midlands alone. Considering the current financial climate you might say that is very silly...or is it because they know they will make a bob or two I wonder (?)!!