Lifts

[Mushy]

Hi all

A service lift used by staff in a hospital opens into a storage area on ground floor and second (top) floor...does this lift need fire resisting compartmentation between the lift doors and the store itself....if so can someone direct me to the guidance

Thanks

[Phoenix]

HTM 05/02.

It is likely that you need 60 minutes at least, but the uses of the second floor and the building as a whole would be useful.

Stu

 

[Mushy]

ok stu

In a 50 metre ground floor protected hospital service corridor there is a service lift. This lift goes to another storage area on the 2nd floor.

The service corridor is a designated escape route. Off the corridor there is a mortuary, laundry, plant room, postal sorting office, sewing room and supplies. all the rooms have fire doors. All the rooms have alternative escape either to outside or into a different compartment. There is double door protection from the laundry/linen and post room to the service corridor.

 TD from each room is within the guidelines for single travel

There are about 50 people working off this corridor

There will soon be a cotag system so that the corridor will be restricted to authorised entry only (not the case at the moment) There are no electrical apparatus in the corridor.

There is an L1 fire alarm system about to be commisioned (it was L2)

The firecode states that there should not be any storage in means of escape corridors or hospital streets.

The storage area on the 2nd floor has plant rooms off it as well as a hospital street...there are 60 minute double fire doors seperating the second floor store and the hospital street.

Now that the cotag system is being intoduced the risk of arson is significantly reduced and if there is a fire there is early detection and alternative escape at either end of the corridor or from the rooms off it.

The fire service have said that it is ok to have these stores down one side as long as the lift is lobbied or smoke control is introduced. Lobbying the doors would not be an option due to space, so smoke control it would have to be.

do you very learned people think this is reasonable?

[Mike Buckley]

Excuse me for being dim, these stores down the side, are they on the ground floor or on the second floor?

IMHO if the stores are in the corridor on the grond floor then smoke control would be required as the smoke from a fire in the ground floor corridor may use the lift shaft as a chimney and smoke the second floor stores and associated plant rooms trapping people who may be working in these areas.

If there are no stores on the ground floor, the fire would occur on the second floor and the smoke would not tend to descend before people can make an esacpe from the ground floor.

[terry martin]

in a healthcare premises. (institutional) over 5m you need 60min compartmentation between floors. any lift shaft penetrating the compartmentation needs 30min fire-resisting doors at each level (60min total). If you have this, which is likely, you don't need further compartmentation to protect fire-spread between floors. irrespective if it serves a room or corridor.

[Mushy]

Thanks for your replies

Mike

the stores down one side of the Service Corridor are on the ground floor....there is another store on the second floor of approx 25 Sq m which is protected by 60 minutes fire doors that lead to a hospital street

Terry

what the fire service are saying is that the lift doors need to be lobbied so if there is a fire in the stores area the staff member in the service lift would not walk straight into it. The ground floor corridor obviously termonates at both ends with fire doors but the lift itself opens into it.

They have given the option of smoke control...to me though someone would still walk into the fire area even with smoke control.

[Colin Newman]

The issue addressed in Firecode regarding lift shafts is one of smoke control.  Smoke seals to lift shaft doors are not readily available so there is a potential for smoke to permeate via the lift shaft and smoke log upper levels. 

This is dealt with in Firecode by the recommendation for a lobby to a protected shaft.  The exception being where the lift shaft is accessed directly from a hospital street in which case the "fire sterile" nature of the hospital street and the recommendation to keep department entrances in separate sub-compartments from entrances to stairs or lifts serves the same purpose as a protected lobby.

The issue of someone in the service lift car walking into a fire is a red-herring since the automatic detection should activate and interface controls to the lift should prevent the lift deploying to a floor on which a fire has been detected.

Smoke control would be a reasonable, but probably expensive, solution.  Is there anyway of providing storage cupboards or other containment for the items being stored maybe by designating storage bays with fire&smoke shutter frontage?  This would also address the issue of storage within an escape route.

[Mushy]

Colin

you are right about the smoke control and the smoke seals to the shaft doors as this has already been looked into...

the automatic detection does not activate the interface controls to the lift at present but we have been told this would not be a problem ...the hospital has a new fire alarm system on soak and will go live shortly.

storage cupbards in the corridor would not be practicle so the two options are remove all the storage or lobby the lift at ground and first floor

I would like to risk assess this out as I think the risk in the corridor would be low once all the significant findings are dealt with...ie no public access etc...there will be no ignition sources within the service corridor, however if there was and storage ignited then MOE would be achievable...but one or two are a bit twitchy about this...onwards and upwards!

[Colin Newman]

I'm sure you've considered it, but just in case, you could pressurise the lift shaft as a means of preventing smoke spread.

Whilst it's true that the majority of arson attacks in hospitals are perpetrated by members of the public or patients, there have been a number of instances where staff have set fires, particularly in service areas.

[Phoenix]

Pressurisation would be very expensive, difficult to achieve properly, noisy and impractical.  If there was a fire involving the lift in some way (maybe in the motor room or in the car mechanism) then the smoke would be driven from the pressurised space throughout large parts of the building.  A non starter I'm afraid.

Are the lift doors fire or smoke resisting?  It's unusual for service lifts but they might be.

This smoke control that's being discussed, what precisely is being suggested?  A smoke dilution system for the corridor?  Or some mechanism for ventilating the shaft?  It all sounds very elaborate.  Why not do the cheapest and easiest option as shown below?




No storage allowed in the small lobby outside the lift.

Stu

[terry martin]

Thanks for your replies

Mike

the stores down one side of the Service Corridor are on the ground floor....there is another store on the second floor of approx 25 Sq m which is protected by 60 minutes fire doors that lead to a hospital street

Terry

what the fire service are saying is that the lift doors need to be lobbied so if there is a fire in the stores area the staff member in the service lift would not walk straight into it. The ground floor corridor obviously termonates at both ends with fire doors but the lift itself opens into it.

They have given the option of smoke control...to me though someone would still walk into the fire area even with smoke control.

Mushy. I have to get on my soap-box here. I'm an inspecting officer, and I think instances like this just damage our reputation.

It really annoys me when I hear Fire Authorities requesting things over and above what is reasonable. You have a premises that appears to be code compliant (within the scope of this discussion). And also have, what is shortly to be, an L1 system. Any fire that may break out in that store would be detected and the alarm raised. The ONLY circumstance that a person in the lift could possibly be affected is if the fire started when you were already in the lift (unless the person ignored the alarm. but that’s another matter). In a building of 3 floors (you said 2nd was the top floor), by the time you got to the second floor its not exactly going to be a raging inferno or totally smoke logged. So where is the significant risk to relevant persons? Additionally, the corridor you mentioned on the ground floor has a route out at either end (I am assuming this from your indication of fire doors at either end of the corridor) and is within a service area. So it isn't a protected corridor.

Sure, if the opportunity is there to interface the lift to bring it to ground, then I would say take that opportunity regardless of this matter. Its sound practice that will prevent person using the lifts in an emergency.

If you did this, the fire authority couldn't argue. They wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Having said that I don't think they have much of a case anyway. My response to them would be;

I have reviewed my fire risk assessment and have taken into account the following matters.
1. A person would only be affected if he was already in the lift at the point the fire was detected.
2. The fire loading in the store does not pose a risk of rapid fire spread (I am assuming this is correct. if there are dangerous substances stored in there, this whole argument falls down).
3. Any storage is located at a suitable distance away from the lift doors.
4. The premises are covered by an L1 system.
5. This is a goods lift, and is only used by staff.
6. The lift is already code compliant, as every lift door to each floor provides 30 min FR. achieving the 60min horizontal compartmentation requirements for institutional premises. (i would be surprised if this is not the case in a hospital)
7. The ground floor corridor is not a protected corridor.

The findings from our review consider there is no significant risk of death or serious injury to relevant person, and therefore additional compartmentation is not required. Additionally, this is backed up by good management and our robust training regime of staff in both fire awareness and evacuation drills.

Can I ask? Is their request the result of an audit? Have they served you a notice? If so what article did they address this in?

[Mushy]

Thank you all

Terry you summed it up just how it is...however the FA are saying it is a protected corridor and it is indicated so on the plans. All habitable rooms off it have a seperate MOE to outside apart from one that is to another compartment (hospital street)

what I can't get my head around as well is the fire authority have ok'd the store on the 2nd floor  as it's in the old certification plans....

they have given options of clearing the corridor completely or lobbying the service corridor lift at ground floor level and the second floor lift....yet if the service corridor is cleared of all storage that would suffice with no lobbying....

so if the storage in the service corridor is kept why can't the hospital just lobby the ground floor in the service corridor and leave the 2nd floor as it is?

Yes the hospital has been served with an enforcement notice

Definciency from Article 8

Inadequate measures to reduce the risk and fire spread. Storage of combustibles in the Service Corridor

Remedy

Ensure sufficient compartmentation is in place

[terry martin]

Thank you all

Terry you summed it up just how it is...however the FA are saying it is a protected corridor and it is indicated so on the plans. All habitable rooms off it have a seperate MOE to outside apart from one that is to another compartment (hospital street)

what I can't get my head around as well is the fire authority have ok'd the store on the 2nd floor  as it's in the old certification plans....

they have given options of clearing the corridor completely or lobbying the service corridor lift at ground floor level and the second floor lift....yet if the service corridor is cleared of all storage that would suffice with no lobbying....

so if the storage in the service corridor is kept why can't the hospital just lobby the ground floor in the service corridor and leave the 2nd floor as it is?

Yes the hospital has been served with an enforcement notice

Definciency from Article 8

Inadequate measures to reduce the risk and fire spread. Storage of combustibles in the Service Corridor

Remedy

Ensure sufficient compartmentation is in place

Mushy,

Ask the fire authority why they believe it to be a protected corridor. and ask them what code they are applying in that decision.

also. i'm a little confused. is 'the storage in the service corridor' the same as the 2nd floor store the lift opens into?

[Mushy]

Terry

the service corridor is on the ground floor seperated at each end by 60 minute fire doors. Within this Service Corridor, as well as rooms, is a Service lift, mainly used to supply stores to the wards...that goes up to a hospital street on the next level... then it goes up to an enclosed storage area, mainly used for bariatric equipment, at the next level again
(approx 5m x 6m )

Coming off this storage room are two plant rooms seperated by fire doors... and from the storage room through double 60 minute doors is the hospital street

difficult to explain on here

[Mushy]

outcome

the hospital is to provide a sterile lobby formed by 60 minute fire doors on the ground floor with the lift returning to ground floor on actuation of the fire alarm.