MofE in Listed building

[terry martin]

I have a bit of a quandary relating to a grade 1 listed premise I am involved with. It is currently under re-development and will link 2 listed buildings into one. The staircase in one of the buildings is grade 1 listed and serves 7 floors. The 2 buildings are being linking for convenience (I’m sure) but also to provide alternative MofE via either building. The G1L staircase is very spacious, however, is pretty much all wooden clad, carpeted and has rooms leading directly on to it (so they don't have an alternative MofE) and the doors to those rooms are listed also. Which limits the extent to which they can be 'upgraded' to provide 1/2hr fire resistance. Even strips and seals are dubious. For info, there will be an L2 FA system installed.

I am not too fussed about the rest of the building. If a fire affected the G1L staircase they could just use the other. But my concern is that this would not be an option for the persons in the rooms leading onto the G1L staircase.

I have thought long and hard about this and come to the following conclusion. The principal risk to those rooms leading on to the G1L staircase would be from another room leading onto that staircase. In absence of 'standard' FD30's with strips and seals, but considering they are substantial doors to be fitted with 'swing free' closer, my only real concern is the spread of smoke compromising this staircase (considering the L2 system and substantial doors).

Here are my questions. 1. Am I being to onerous to expect this staircase to be fitted with an AOV? it is possible without compromising the G1L.
                            2. I keep having this nagging feeling I may be too sympathetic to the G1L. Would anyone expect more?
                            3. does anyone have any knowledge of what types of 'upgrading' is available to the doors within the G1L staircase, that could be provided and/or be considered sufficient?

I know it may be difficult to answer in absence of knowledge, so I’ll try to answer any questions to clarify.

[afterburner]

If the staircase and the doors leading off the staircase are listed your options for doing things to the doors to protect the stairs are just about non-existent. But it seems clear from your description that you feel you need to protect the staircase for the safey of persons rooms off the staircase. Would it be possible to protect the staircase by providing innner vestibules with 'proper' fire doors inside the rooms?

[nearlythere]

I have a bit of a quandary relating to a grade 1 listed premise I am involved with. It is currently under re-development and will link 2 listed buildings into one. The staircase in one of the buildings is grade 1 listed and serves 7 floors. The 2 buildings are being linking for convenience (I’m sure) but also to provide alternative MofE via either building. The G1L staircase is very spacious, however, is pretty much all wooden clad, carpeted and has rooms leading directly on to it (so they don't have an alternative MofE) and the doors to those rooms are listed also. Which limits the extent to which they can be 'upgraded' to provide 1/2hr fire resistance. Even strips and seals are dubious. For info, there will be an L2 FA system installed.

I am not too fussed about the rest of the building. If a fire affected the G1L staircase they could just use the other. But my concern is that this would not be an option for the persons in the rooms leading onto the G1L staircase.

I have thought long and hard about this and come to the following conclusion. The principal risk to those rooms leading on to the G1L staircase would be from another room leading onto that staircase. In absence of 'standard' FD30's with strips and seals, but considering they are substantial doors to be fitted with 'swing free' closer, my only real concern is the spread of smoke compromising this staircase (considering the L2 system and substantial doors).

Here are my questions. 1. Am I being to onerous to expect this staircase to be fitted with an AOV? it is possible without compromising the G1L.
                            2. I keep having this nagging feeling I may be too sympathetic to the G1L. Would anyone expect more?
                            3. does anyone have any knowledge of what types of 'upgrading' is available to the doors within the G1L staircase, that could be provided and/or be considered sufficient?

I know it may be difficult to answer in absence of knowledge, so I’ll try to answer any questions to clarify.

Terry. Have you looked at BS7913 1998 - The principles of the conservation of historic buildings?

[rn976]

Terry

Have you looked at work done by English heritage and upgrading heritage doors also have you spoken to the conservation officers at local council re the schemes, as they may have say in what occurs in listed building 
regards
confused in a big world 

[Phoenix]

Hi Terry,

Could I ask what the rooms off the G1L staircase are being used for?  If sleeping risks then I think you have some real issues.  If not sleeping then the protection provided by the alarm system and the (presumably) high ceilings in the rooms could provide satisfactory means of escape.  Staff training would be important.

The possibility of a fire originating within the staircase itself should be addressed also.  This might be tackled by good preventive measures and beam or aspirating detection.  The AOV you talk of might also have a part to play in this respect.

Stu

[terry martin]

All,

Thank you. 

Afterburner. Not possible the rooms are also G1L

Nearlythere. Yes thanks. It’s mostly explanatory and quite woolly. But does make sense. I took that into consideration when I decided a fair option would be to supply an AOV.

rn976. They are going to supply me with the specs of how they intend to upgrade the doors. But to be honest, when I receive it, I’ll have to research it. Do you know where I can find info on what you refer to? An additional point is that I am not too concerned about fire spread, more so the spread of smoke. All the rooms will be fitted with AFD, so I can't see the fire developing in any room quick enough to significantly reduce the time between the alarm being raised and a full evacuation, before the staircase is compromised by fire. So it comes back to my main concern of smoke making the staircase impassable.

Phoenix. No sleeping risk, they are offices. I have considered fire spread occurring within the staircase. The only risk is a reception desk which is manned 24hrs. And it will be. For sure. Considering the use and security of the building. So any fire starting within the reception desk will raise the alarm immediately. They are trained to use Fire extinguishers, so it is unlikely to develop significantly. And any person in the rooms of that staircase do not have to travel down. They can just traverse the staircase on their floor and make there way to the other staircase.

For me it does keep coming back to the risk of the stair being impassable due to smoke. It is the only realistic significant risk they have not already addressed. So to me, an AOV is the answer. I think this is fair as it doesn’t impede in any way on the G1L. And it is a compensatory factor for the complete lack of code-compliance.

Any other thoughts?

[kurnal]

On which levels will the buildings be linked?

Is the link off the staircase or through an individual rooms?

What are the approximate dimensions of the staircase shaft?

How many rooms and how many persons per floor are we lookng at?

[terry martin]

On which levels will the buildings be linked?

Is the link off the staircase or through an individual rooms?

What are the approximate dimensions of the staircase shaft?

How many rooms and how many persons per floor are we lookng at?

linked on all floors.
 
the link is off the staircase leading to either a corridor on some floors or via open plan office on others.

The staircase is quite grand. aprox. 8X15M

Average 3 rooms per floor. over 6 of the floors. considering the use of the premises i would say no more than 50.

[kurnal]

I think I would recommend that the owner commissions some modelling before spending money on ventilation.  It would in any case inform the vent sizing exercise and help ensure that any expenditure and changes to the building were founded on sound evidence and justification. Phoenix would sort you out.

[rn976]

Terry
follow this link some good stuff on fire doors and compartments
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1108

regards

[terry martin]

Terry
follow this link some good stuff on fire doors and compartments
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1108

regards

Thanks rn976