Author Topic: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors  (Read 108156 times)

Offline Tom Sutton

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The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« on: February 15, 2010, 07:49:11 PM »

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I seem to be in the middle of a little difference of opinion between a couple of fire professionals. I have had a fire risk assessment carried out at our property in November (by an ex-brigade officer). The FRS carried out a site visit at the end of January and has decided the risk assessment is inadequate. I can work my way through most of the bits and assist the FRS by complying with some of their requests for additional detection and intumescent seals however they are requesting that we fit these seals on every bedroom door. The fire risk assessor in reply to this request has pointed out that the room doors are of substantial construction, in good condition and fit well. Given the level of smoke detection on either side of these doors a realistic view would be that the seals wouldn’t operate because such substantial doors would require an extensive fire to take the seals to a situation where they would expand.


This is an enquiry I receive quite often FRS requiring intumescent seals fitting on fire doors that have been is existence for quite a long time, and contrary to the Fire Risk Assessors views, any observations.

It’s a Scottish Hotel 138 rooms I am also waiting for more information.


All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline jokar

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 08:02:57 PM »
IMHO if the fire doors are to BS 476 part 8 and as stated fit well in the frame then they should be suitable.  No one has ever, to my knowledge, stated that a door that started out tested to BS 476 part 8 and then been cut about or otherwise to fit strips and seals retains its certification to that standard.  The latest standard BS 476 part 22 and 31 require strips and seals for the door in its tested door set.  However, Auntie Lin in the past has anwered some of these queries and a search of the site may well find her answers.

Offline Paul2886

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 08:06:34 PM »
I have had the same problems myself where a FRS officer has come along and said the same thing and also ask for the fire alarm system to made L1 standard. I have contested the comments stating that I have risk assessed the premises and not taken the easy route of just applying best practice. Surely the FRS job is to undertake an audit and not simply apply 'new build' type of standards.
The RRFSO was not intended to be a tool to upgrade every premises to the best standards but to have an organised look at things and make reasonable recommendations. Could it be that, in some cases, civilians are now undertaking these audits who are not trained at seeing the bigger picture and how one thing can affect other things in a fire risk assessment. If it was just about applying best practices we could do a fire risk assessment over the flippin' phone by just asking a few questions. Sorry, do I sound grumpy or have others experience similar frustrations

Offline jokar

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 08:08:39 PM »
Search all of Auntie Lin's posts.  She has berated me before on this subject but she is an expert.

Offline Nearlybaldandgrey

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 08:23:29 AM »
I'd advise you to contact the officer and ask for clarification - requirement or recommendation?

As an inspecting officer, doors which do not have strips and seals are recommended to be upgraded, but that is based on an inspection of a sample of doors to ascertain their condition, fit and whether they are subject to routine inspection by the responsible person. The recommendation is not enforceable, but I do explain that it will increase the standards in the premises and that it can be carried out on a rolling program if needed supported by the risk assessment and an action plan.

As Jokar states, the doors are tested with strips and seals as a complete doorset ... frame, fixings and furnishings to be certificated.

Offline Davo

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 09:23:46 AM »
TW

Are smoke seals fitted?
The fact that smoke rather than heat is fitted, to me means that the standard is far higher than most hotels.
Another factor to consider is management. Staffing levels, practised procedures, servicing etc.
Also time for brigade to respond perhaps, if in the highlands it might be in the hotel's best interests



davo

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 09:46:29 AM »
Thanks guys I have asked for more info and I am not directly involved in this case just been asked a question.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 04:17:21 PM »
Fire doors have to be capable of withstanding the passage of smoke at ambient temperatures. If the door does not fit neat enough to prevent the passage of smoke then seals may need to be fitted.
Despite what some think the fitting of smoke seals to a door does not necessarily mean the passage of smoke will be prevented. I have seen doors with smoke seals fitted where a strip of chewing gum would have been as good.
Nowadays when a door is tested everything is thrown at it to ensure that it passes and gets certified. I have no doubt that had the joiner inadvertantly left his plastic duck on top of the door and it passed the test we would then be requiring the provision of like plastic ducks on doors as well.
We are so hung up on requiring smoke seals to be fitted to doors rather than requiring the door to be smoke stopped.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Hightower

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 05:49:34 PM »
Quote
The RRFSO was not intended to be a tool to upgrade every premises to the best standards but to have an organised look at things and make reasonable recommendations. Could it be that, in some cases, civilians are now undertaking these audits who are not trained at seeing the bigger picture and how one thing can affect other things in a fire risk assessment. If it was just about applying best practices we could do a fire risk assessment over the flippin' phone by just asking a few questions. Sorry, do I sound grumpy or have others experience similar frustrations
Paul2886 - I have also experienced (as many others) a difference in opinion with the FRS when it came to the necessary fire precautions of buildings not to current regs.  As you state I do not believe it is always necessary to bring an older building to the requirements of new building standards; however, many FRS are prescriptively applying the HMSO guides so in effect are.  Maybe much of our trouble is that we now live in a letigious society that would seek to presecute the FRS if they did not insist on the best measures available and also we live in a time when (dare I say it) not 1 life is expendable and therefore a FRA has to be so good to ensure this level of perfection is maintained.  The cost / benefit in applying all these regs and measures is arguably not balanced.  Easy for me to say until someone I care about is affected then of course off down the solicitors I'd go!!!
"We live in a world that can be unwittingly unpleasant to people who don't matter." (Giles Bolton)

Offline novascot

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 07:24:11 PM »
As it is a Scottish Hotel go to the Practical Fire Safety Guidance for Medium and Large Premises Providing Sleeping
Accommodation
 Go To Technical Annexe 13.9 where it states:

Bedroom Corridor Doors
6. Where a bedroom opens into a circulation area, a fire occurring in the bedroom or
other room opening into the circulation area will pose a threat to the occupants of other
rooms who have to use this circulation area for potential escape.
7. The provision of fire-resisting doors offers protection to the escape route from a fire starting in a bedroom or other room. More modern premises may have FD 30S doors fittedto the bedrooms in compliance with Building Regulations. In other cases existing doors may be suitable which, while not meeting the specification for an FD 30S door, are of substantial construction and close fitting. Some doors may have the potential to be upgraded to nominal
FD 30S standard.

Simple really.  ;)

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 08:10:10 PM »
The doors seem to range in age from 1997 back to1980s. The rebates are mainly 25mm x 45mm.

In the past when intumescent strips were installed on doors with 25mm rebates the opinion then was the 25mm door stop inhibited the actuation of the strips and 12mm door stops should be used. Using this argument the 25mm stop was doing its job without the intumescent strip so why is it needed now.

If it’s a well fitting door and regularly maintained then the amount of smoke that would pass would be minimal so again are smoke seals required, especially with an L1 system installed.

Fire Doors with inch rebates and no smoke seals were the norm in the seventies and still provide an adequate level of protection today, certainly this is some people’s opinion.

http://www.kingfell.com/~forum/index.php?topic=4073.0

I accept in new build or refurbishment the latest standards should be applied (certificated door sets or assemblies) but in existing situations were the fire doors are of a good standard should they not be accepted?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 08:13:17 PM by twsutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Fishy

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 12:47:28 PM »
Having specialised in fire doors (amongst other things) in a previous life, and having seen loads of fire resistance tests on timber doorsets, both to BS 476: Part 8: 1972 and Part 22: 1987, my observations are as follows:

•   Door stop size does not make a significant difference to the fire resistance rating of a timber doorset;

•   Door stop size does not make any difference to the smoke sealing ability of a timber doorset (TRADA did some research that demonstrated this, I seem to recall);

•   People who say that because a door passed a test that was superseded nearly 30 years ago it is automatically still OK are (in my view) missing the fact that the benchmark of acceptability as regards safety performance changes over the years, and when assessing safety one has to refer to current good practice – not 30-year-old good practice.  If (as is stated) some of these were installed in 1997 they fell well short of the good practice benchmark that was a requirement of that time;

•   When a doorset is described as being ’30 minutes’ fire-resisting that does not mean it will last 30 mins in a fire – it might last longer or it might fail more quickly.  The Fire resistance tests are a ranking methodology, used as such in the guidance to the Building Regulations, not a means of determining ultimate fire performance;

The above does not mean that I consider that every existing fire door should be upgraded to the current standard.  It means, though, that those undertaking the risk assessment need to understand that doors that aren’t up to current standards would not provide the current ‘benchmark’ level of fire separation and/or smoke sealing performance.  They then need to assess whether that is acceptable;

My experience tends to be that you can tolerate a certain degree of flexibility in fire resistance performance (say, accepting 20 mins where the AD-B would require 30, if there are no hazards that are ‘unusual’), and there’s plenty of advice available regarding how to judge the fire resistance of existing timber doorsets (and upgrade if necessary), but that it’s more often than not smoke sealing that is critical.  If you need smoke sealing then the only way you will get that achieved effectively is by having correctly installed, well-fitting doors that incorporate cold smoke seals.  Having a big stop on a door frame will make little difference to smoke sealing performance.  If you therefore conclude that you need to fit smoke seals, in most cases you may as well fit combined intumescent/smoke seals, which give you the benefit of improved fire performance at next to no additional cost.

Finally, there was, of course, the determination (http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/heritagehotel.pdf) that dealt with this issue and had as one of its conclusions “It is considered that the existing doors (even with self closing devices fitted) cannot be relied upon to prevent the egress of smoke at the early stages of a fire”.  As the Determination states, this only applies to the case in question and in consideration of the particular risks found in that premises, but whether or not one likes or agrees with the conclusion of the determination, it’s now in the public arena and we have a responsibility to consider the ‘good practice’ benchmark that it provides when we’re making our safety decisions.

In summary, I think that the benefits of upgrading the fire and particularly the smoke resistance performance of doorsets is often dismissed too lightly.  It’s not that difficult to achieve and in certain cases, to protect certain risks, it can be hard to conceive how a case can be made for not achieving a certain minimum level of fire and smoke sealing performance.

Midland Retty

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »
Playing devil's advocate here, would you not agree intumescent strips are really for property protection, rather than life safety (other than in premises where there is a stay put policy)

Surely if (and I realise this can be a big if) everything else is in place , ie; appropriate early warning, good management, smoke seals on fire doors etc etc people should be long out of the building before conditions have deteriorated to the point intumescents will activate.

How many of you can hand on heart say they have been to post fire scenes and have found fire doors where the intumescent strip has activated on a regular basis. Ive been to my fair share of fires / post fire scenes and can count on one hand the times ive seen that happen.

Discuss!

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 10:24:19 PM »

Door stop size does not make a significant difference to the fire resistance rating of a timber doorset

I would agree if the doorset was fitted with intumescent strip and the 12mm stop would most probably more effective. But to make these comparisons you would have to see the doorsets tested without intumescent strips was this the case?

If so you must be an old git like me. ;)

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Door stop size does not make any difference to the smoke sealing ability of a timber doorset (TRADA did some research that demonstrated this, I seem to recall)

I would be very interested in this research do you have any further details? I would like to know the amount of leakage to determine the threat to a means of escape?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 10:25:52 PM by twsutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: The need for intumescent seals on fire doors
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 09:44:22 PM »
Playing devil's advocate here, would you not agree intumescent strips are really for property protection, rather than life safety (other than in premises where there is a stay put policy)

IMHO Property protection. Intumescent strips date back from the ark and were important in the days before AFD. They cant be for life safety save for places with stay put policy as youve already said.