Supported Assisted Living

[nearlythere]

Totally agree NT, but is this any riskier than your average domestic scenario?

In my experience residents are generally well supervised in these types of places. The staircase situation is unfortunate, but often trying to fiddle around with staircases can be costly and can mean you loose part or most of the lounge area.

So its trying to balance "quality of life" against "life safety" I guess.

I agree with your balancing quality of life-v-quality of safety issue and certainly the risk would be no greater than a domestic environment. I would actually consider the risk much less as this type of care environment is certainly much more controlled. I do not have a risk concern as that can be quite easily and reasonably controlled but a concern that the F&RS may not be persuaded that the risk is adequately controllable by such measures.
I have carried out a number of FRAs for this type of service provider but haven't yet come across an open plan issue. But be assured that in my neck of the woods the normal 12 months experienced IO will not be at all happy or satisfied if I assessed it as OK.
Hairy bummed and experienced IOs are fast disappearing

 

[kurnal]

It might well be riskier than the average domestic situation. It entirely depends on how much supervision and support the service users may require on being wakened at 3am because of a fire, whether the staff member is upstairs or downstairs and whether they can be safely dealt with as a pair or whether the staff member would have to rouse them and lead them out one at a time.

[Midland Retty]

I take on board your points Kurnal however the type of environment in adult care of this particular nature is such that the "client" forms long term relationships with his or her carer. The carers become almost like surrogate parents in a sense.

As such the clients tend to respond well to their carers, and likewise the carers grow to understand their clients behavioral traits just as a parent does with their child. So this is very much like a domestic scenario and I dont see any significant additonal risks to warrant perhaps the OTT response nearlythere is talking about.

[kurnal]

I agree with most of what you say midland and that is exactly what adult placements are all about, but this appears to be supported living in a small care home "Core Homes " we used to call them. The Care staff are working shifts and 1:1 during the day and in this case 1:2 at night. I also agree that at best Core homes can pretty identical to a single family dwelling  but in other cases are far from it.   

[Midland Retty]

Absolutely and each has to be judged on its own merits.

For anyone else interested in this subject its worth noting that sometimes the clients actually live with the carers family - in other words the arrangement is almost like foster care.

Its complex, but I do share NT and others worry that some inspectors (not all) and for that matter some assessors too may be overburdensome in their requirements for these type of places.

[Tom Sutton]

May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.

[nearlythere]

May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.

Many do TW. There are many open plan houses and people are not dying from fires in them.
I remember being in a new house in a major development in Scotland where the houses were so small they left the stairway open into the lounge to give the illusion of space.

[Midland Retty]

May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.

Hi Tom

There are a high proportion of domestic dwellings across the UK designed in this way. Infact you can come across the odd HMO with this layout regularly. My previous address had the stairs came down in the lounge and whilst Im not pretending it is ideal by any means I didnt loose any sleep about it.

[jasper]

thanks for the replies fellas
supposedly lancs fr are having a seminar in the coming weeks on this exact topic as there is a lot of confusion, even for enforcing authorities

[jayjay]

Ther is a guide available from the CCLG web site not sure of a web link

It free and is aimed at community care housing I am of the opinion that the staff will come under the RRO if you have any problems locating it email me and I can send a copy.

The title is
Fire Safety in Adult Placements:
A Code of Practice

Google should find a copy

[jasper]

Ther is a guide available from the CCLG web site not sure of a web link

It free and is aimed at community care housing I am of the opinion that the staff will come under the RRO if you have any problems locating it email me and I can send a copy.

The title is
Fire Safety in Adult Placements:
A Code of Practice

Google should find a copy

Hi, managed to find it and quite a good document (thanks for that). However, it was published prior to the advent of the RRO

[Tom Sutton]

NT and MM  I do not disagree with you and I lived in a two up and two down were the staircase discharged into the living room. However the bedroom doors were fairly substantial and there was a window escape if things went pear shaped. This premises does not have the benefit of a window escape.

[nearlythere]

NT and MM  I do not disagree with you and I lived in a two up and two down were the staircase discharged into the living room. However the bedroom doors were fairly substantial and there was a window escape if things went pear shaped. This premises does not have the benefit of a window escape.

Even if there was a window escape in your premises would it be appropriate, for the type of persons you are dealing with, TW as an alternative MOE.
I'm not saying that an open stairway is not suitable. I'm just drawing your attention to the issues associated with than design and its impact on your situation.

[jasper]

I think as stated earlier that each assessment has to be risk specific to the disability profile of the occupants, in this case I would not say it would be suitable or sufficient for the escape plan to involve two pretty serious mental health impaired occupants jumping out of or being rescued from a first floor window

[Tom Sutton]

NT I was responding to yours and Midlands reply 21 & 22 I accept there are many properties like this and for many people beefing up the fire resistance and providing a window escape could make it acceptable but not in this case as jasper has explained window escape is a non starter.

In this case the whole strategy relies on a fire alarm giving early warning and the carer getting his/her charges out before the MOE becomes impassable. How long would this be, based on previous videos I have seen I would suggest less than 5 minutes would this be sufficient time considering there is no plan B?