RP Private Club

[nearlythere]

Was at a golf club recently and discussing person responsible or with duties. On an inspection by a "HSE inspector" (more than likely council EHO) the Club admin officer nominated the Captain as this person. The H&S Insp thought this appropriate.
The Club has a general committee and a new H&S committee. The Captain is just your traditional captain type, club figure head, car parking space nearest the front door and a fat wallet for Captain's Day. The general committee has formed a H&S sib committee.
My thoughts are that the person with duties is the general committee with the person nominated to assist, in this case, the H&S committee.
What does the panel think?

[kurnal]

Hi Nearlyimpossible
Its not easy to respond without knowledge of of the club constitution. In most club scenarios the Chairman of the management committee will be the legal figurehead. Is there a Chairman or is the Captain performing this role?

[nearlythere]

Hi Nearlyimpossible
Its not easy to respond without knowledge of of the club constitution. In most club scenarios the Chairman of the management committee will be the legal figurehead. Is there a Chairman or is the Captain performing this role?

But is what is stated in the constitution relevant K? Surely constitutions cannot take precedence over a statutory requirement.
Captains can and usually do change annually so can one really expect such persons to be the person responsible?
Captains, and club figureheads, would chair general committee meetings but would not have executive powers. From my experience, and for my sins I have been on a few, all decisions are made democratically by the committee. It would be the committee that controls the club, not the captain.
What ya think?

[Steven N]

Hi i'm glad this has come up as I'm dealing with same sort of problem, if a club has a commitee would it be the secretary? I'm waiting & hoping for the wise ones to advise on here 

[kurnal]

This struck me as an interesting question and I have been looking about on the net for simple answers without success.
It appears to be one for alegal forum rather than a fire safety forum. The following link covers some interesting principles (and a decent cartoon):

http://www.bikerlegal.co.uk/faqs/faq/6-club-liabilities-who-carries-the-can/

I believe the only fire safety related answer we can give is Articles 3 and 5 of the Fire Safety Order. How that relates to individual responsibilities will depend on the legal constitution of the club, and whether it is incorporated or not.

You may do well to ask your question on a legal forum such as this one:
http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/

 

[nearlythere]

What have forum members been doing under RRO 2005 with regards to clubs?

[Tom Sutton]

I agree with NT the general committee could be likened to the body corporate and they are the people who employ the staff the most important being the barman. The H&S committee being the competent persons.

Check out http://www.kingfell.com/~forum/index.php?topic=3022.0

[Meerkat]

Interesting article Kurnal but a biker club presumably has no employees?

Golf club must surely employ people - barman as said above - groundsmen, cleaners and so on?  Therefore it's a workplace.  Therefore the RP is the person (or organisation) named in the individuals' contracts of employment as their employer?

[Midland Retty]

Following on from Meerkats reply in my experience the committe have responsibility of hiring or firing the said barman, cleaner, secretary etc.

As such apply article 3 and the committee do become the responsible person. A bit like as NT says a body corporate situation.

I liken the Chairman in this scenario to a company secretary in that he or she would be the point of contact for all correspondance relating to enforcement action but would not be the RP - the committee is the RP.

[Meerkat]

That sounds right to me.  Once again this sounds like confusion between the "Responsible Person" - i.e. the FSO legal definition which does not have to be a named individual (I find most organisations seem to struggle - not surprisingly - with this concept that a person doesn't have to be a person...) and the person who is responsible for doing stuff (small "r" small "p", no legal definition)

What a rubbish piece of writing the FSO really is when you look at it carefully  

Oooh - I'm not designated as a "forum newbie" any more.  Does that imply increased competency?  Can I claim CPD points? 

[kurnal]

...Once again this sounds like confusion between the "Responsible Person" - i.e. the FSO legal definition which does not have to be a named individual (I find most organisations seem to struggle - not surprisingly - with this concept that a person doesn't have to be a person...) and the person who is responsible for doing stuff (small "r" small "p", no legal definition)

Yes I agree Meercat but you wont find a Capital Letter anywhere in the definitions or the articles of the FSO- hence the confusion. We all recognise the difference between the RP and  rp but the Order is no help at all in differentiating which term is relevant.

I also agree with Midland Retty (note the capitals) but if the club is incorporated then the Company Secretary and board may have legal responsibility and duties.

[Chris Houston]

I'm not designated as a "forum newbie" any more.  Does that imply increased competency?

It does imply you are more competant.  But it doesn't mean you actuall are. 

[Tom Sutton]

Interesting article Kurnal but a biker club presumably has no employees?

No problem its not a workplace nail them on art 3(b).

[Meerkat]

I wasn't implying that it was you that was confused by the definitions Kurnal - honest

It does cause confusion with those who have the duties under the FSO though and may be part of the reason why the Admin Officer and EHO in your original post were allocating the Captain as the RP (or rp)

[Midland Retty]

...Once again this sounds like confusion between the "Responsible Person" - i.e. the FSO legal definition which does not have to be a named individual (I find most organisations seem to struggle - not surprisingly - with this concept that a person doesn't have to be a person...) and the person who is responsible for doing stuff (small "r" small "p", no legal definition)

the club is incorporated then the Company Secretary and board may have legal responsibility and duties.

Members may have additional responsibilities, and may be named individuals if incorporated, but this wouldn't make them RPs, and we need to be clear on this to avoid confusion.

The constitution of the club has absolutely no bearing on the fire safety order whatsoever.

When applying article 3 you look first to see if there is an employer involved.

In this case there is - it is the committee - they have the authority to "hire and fire". Once you have established that you dont go any further.