Lifts grounded by fire alarms

[FireDave]

 Can I have some advice please.

I have a scenario where a bank of 3 lifts in a 6 storey building (built in 1960's) discharge into a lobby on each floor, each lobby is approx. 40m2.  The fire policy and procedure document states that when the fire alarm actuates within any of the lift lobbies all 3 lifts will go to the lower ground floor (which is the bottom) open their doors and remain like so until the fire alarm system is reset. (The fire alarm is an L1 system).

In a recent incident this did not occur and members of the public and staff used the lift to exit the building, not realising the fire alarm involved them. (I am having the alarm checked to ensure it did sound at every floor level).

My question is that, in my days in the fire service the above what should have happened was very usual,  but now with the advancement of technology and knowledge, is this still the current thinking, or would it be better, or possible, to have each lift remain at the floor it was at, at the time of the fire alarm activation and remain there with doors open until the fire alarm is reset?

I can see a value in both possibilities and I would appreciate your comments and words of wisdom

Thanks very much

Dave

[Wiz]

Can I have some advice please.

I have a scenario where a bank of 3 lifts in a 6 storey building (built in 1960's) discharge into a lobby on each floor, each lobby is approx. 40m2.  The fire policy and procedure document states that when the fire alarm actuates within any of the lift lobbies all 3 lifts will go to the lower ground floor (which is the bottom) open their doors and remain like so until the fire alarm system is reset. (The fire alarm is an L1 system).

In a recent incident this did not occur and members of the public and staff used the lift to exit the building, not realising the fire alarm involved them. (I am having the alarm checked to ensure it did sound at every floor level).

My question is that, in my days in the fire service the above what should have happened was very usual,  but now with the advancement of technology and knowledge, is this still the current thinking, or would it be better, or possible, to have each lift remain at the floor it was at, at the time of the fire alarm activation and remain there with doors open until the fire alarm is reset?

I can see a value in both possibilities and I would appreciate your comments and words of wisdom

Thanks very much

Dave

Dave, my understanding of the concept is that the lifts automatically returned to a designated floor (normally ground floor) to be available for use by the rescue services (if required) who could overide the automatic control by a special key.

[FireDave]

Thanks Wiz, that is what I thought, but what happens if the fire incident is on the designated floor?? or is it the case that you cannot cover every eventuality, so there will always be an element of risk.

[afterburner]

I would suggest that if the designated floor is the lowest floor the fire & rescue crews don't need the lift to get to the fire.

[Mr. P]

Ah! But! anyone with-in said lift may be disgorged into the fire area?! Agreeing the lift(s) usual configured to go direct to ground floor level with no stops in between. Hmm...

[Midland Retty]

1) Lifts are sent to ground floor so that anyone in the lift at the time the alarm activates is sent straight to ground floor to make their onward escape,

2) It prevents anyone else attempting to call for the lift - and thus people aren't tempted to wander off anywhere else and:-

3) Once sat at ground floor level the lifts can be used for fire service use if required.

I also heard a viscous rumour that it is also to do with security reasons, something Chris Houston may confirm being an insurance bod.  Back in the bad old days there were apparently cases of crafty criminals who would deliberately set off fire alarms in buildings forcing people to evacuate.

While everyone was evacuating the crims would slip into the building and ride the lifts which of course allowed them to swiftly pilfer from several floors. With the lifts available they could swipe bulky and heavy items with ease! Bit of useless info for you there and probably an old wives tale!

[FireDave]

Thanks for all the replies you have confirmed my original thoughts on this

[Tom Sutton]

 Back in the bad old days there were apparently cases of crafty criminals who would deliberately set off fire alarms in buildings forcing people to evacuate.

While everyone was evacuating the crims would slip into the building and ride the lifts which of course allowed them to swiftly pilfer from several floors. With the lifts available they could swipe bulky and heavy items with ease! Bit of useless info for you there and probably an old wives tale!

Good idea MR must try that one. 

[nearlythere]

 Back in the bad old days there were apparently cases of crafty criminals who would deliberately set off fire alarms in buildings forcing people to evacuate.

While everyone was evacuating the crims would slip into the building and ride the lifts which of course allowed them to swiftly pilfer from several floors. With the lifts available they could swipe bulky and heavy items with ease! Bit of useless info for you there and probably an old wives tale!

Good idea MR must try that one. 

Doesn't work. Nobody paid any attention to the alarm.

[kurnal]

All this is from the top of my head so correct me if I am wrong.

I think where the lift is interfaced to the fire alarm in this way it should descend to the the best level for means of escape which may be a floor other than the ground floor in some cases.

In the case of lifts for fire service use they will usually descend to the fire service access level but in any case there will be a switch of some kind for the fire service to summon the lift and then operate the internal switch to disable the landing controls on other floors.

Care is needed before agreeing an interface in a number of situations:

Where the lift is part of the disabled evacuation strategy

Where the lift shaft is required to be a protected shaft then if the doors remain open at the base of the shaft this undermines the fire compartmentation. Do they remain open or shut after a predetermined time?

Where the lift plant is situated within the shaft- becoming common with hydraulic lifts particularly those coming from South Eastern Europe. The European standard for lifts BSEN 81 has not considered the possibility of a significant fire loading within the lift shaft, this is explicitly stated in the sandard. But with hydraulic lifts there  could be a very significant fire loading indeed. Manufacturers and installers  of these installations are achieving compliance with BSEN81 simply because this factor was not forseen when the standard was drafted.

So some caution is needed when considering interfaces between fire alarms and passenger lifts. A sign "Do not use etc" is not much better though.

[Cullenloon]

Have a wee look at BS EN 81 - 73 : 2005

"Safety rules for construction and installation of lifts : particular applications for passenger and goods passenger lifts behaviour of lifts in the event of fire"

 May be of some help.

[kurnal]

Thanks Cullenloon. That is one of my points- it is so often overlooked.

 Heres the extract in question.

"BS EN 81 - 73 : 2005
5.3.5 On arriving at the designated landing lifts with power operated doors shall park there with the car and
landing doors open and removed from service.
Where national regulations do not permit the doors to remain open, a means shall be provided to open the doors
(even with the electrical power on) enabling the fire service to check whether the car is present and persons are not
trapped (see EN 81-1:1998, 0.2.5 and EN 81-2:1998, 0.2.5).
NOTE This means should take the form of the unlocking triangle as defined in EN 81-1:1998, annex B or EN 81-2:1998,
annex B. Where this is not possible then an alternative device e.g. the landing button may be used."

I have seen many lifts doors remain parked in the open position even when table B1 of  Building Regulations approved document B would require a fire door at all openings to the shaft.  An open door is not a fire door.  

 I wonder why they specify "Even with the power on"? Do you think maybe they meant Off?


In terms of fire resistance of the lift doors, heres another extract:
"EN 81-58:2003 (E) 1 Scope
This European Standard specifies the method of test for determining the fire resistance of lift landing doors which
may be exposed to a fire from the landing side. The procedure applies to all types of lift landing doors used as a
means of access to lifts in buildings and which are intended to provide a fire barrier to the spread of fire via the lift
well."

So thats why I say we have a problem with those installations with all the hydraulic plant sitting in the base of the lift well.

[FireDave]

Thanks guys, all the information given has been very useful, special thanks to Cullenloon and Kurnal for the BS info and extract.

You have confirmed my original thoughts and given me back up to take to the powers that be.

Thanks again