Interesting court appeal in progress

[kurnal]

Heres an interesting case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/8638205.stm

A fire extinguisher supplier is challenging an order to pay for £240,000 of damage done to a church by schoolboys with their canisters.

The Church of St Mary and St Nicholas in Spalding, Lincolnshire, won the payout from Chubb Fire Ltd at Nottingham County Court in April 2009.

The church claimed Chubb failed to properly warn of the effects of misuse.

The Appeal Court has heard Chubb could not have foreseen the vandalism and the church could have locked its doors.

[John Webb]

Further to this one, the Ecclesiastical Insurance Office asked all its clients to remove DP extinguishers from their premises as soon as possible.

I understand the church organ had to be dismantled to clean out the powder that had got into it, and scaffolding erected to clean the DP off high-level ledges and other places so that damage to stonework was avoided.

[Gasmeter]

Were these DPs in a boiler room or similar?  If not I wonder why they were specified in the first place, surely nothing to do with cost 

[Midland Retty]

I have to say this seems rather unfair on the extinguisher manufacturer concerned

Where do you draw the line?

Its a bit like saying if a joyrider nicks a car and ploughs into a shop causing thousands of pounds worth of damage the vehicle manufacturer is at fault  !

[AnthonyB]

Yes unfair on the terms it was brought - the only scenario where they should be liable is if they did a full RA of the premises, recommended them (without mentioning 2ndary damage risk) and they got used on a small fire and caused disproportionate secondary damage.

One of our clients running a large national dental chain has taken advice and banned powder and in new acquisitions they get removed if present.

[nearlythere]

For what type of risk in the building did Chubb recommend DPs ?
Would anyone recommend the provision of DPs in a clean environment?
Was the provision of DPs anything to do with their price?

[AnthonyB]

I'd be suprised if the Chubb engineer suggested them as first choice - from both a sales and risk basis they would have suggested Hydrospray or AFFF and CO2.

Price would be a factor - even if on National Major Account terms (in the £25-£35 per extinguisher range) one Powder for each fire point is still cheaper than a Hydrospray & CO2.

I always point out the damage risks verbally on surveys, but unless in a vulnerable area (MoE, patient care, etc) wouldn't flag it in a life safety only report as an action point because on paper a Powder can tackle the same fires as a water based/Co2 combo.

[kurnal]

Very often where there is a large area to be protected, dry powder are seen as a cost effective option due to their very high class A rating when compared size for size or unit by unit- eg a 9 litre Water extinguisher will have a fire rating 13A, a 9 kg multipurpose dry powder probably 55A- so you may (subject to travel distances)  get away with up to 4 times fewer if you can live with the other consequences of installing Dry Powder.

[SeaBass]

In many parts of Europe and some states in America DPs are used as standard and no one even considers a combination of C02/and a class A extinguisher.  I'm told that in the states it’s a lot to do with the fear of potential liability that may arise if someone were hurt using the incorrect type of extinguisher on a specific type of fire. ASBC DPs having a wider range of applications. In Europe, so far as I can ascertain, it seems to be more that they consider it easier for untrained/poorly trained people to achieve a rapid knock down with DP, and that cleaning up DP is a lot less hassle than cleaning up after a fire.  Interestingly, I recently came across a factory which has 6 and 9KG DPs in a manufacturing area that is full of very expensive robotic production machinery. Extinguishers supplied and serviced by Chubb, so maybe they are thinking along the European / US lines? 

[Bobbins]

Is it me, or should the boys who set off the extinguishers be picking up the bill (or mum and dad)

The world has gone mad; but if the church can forgive the boys who did it then they should do the same for Chubb

Here endeth the lesson for today